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Does every seller shill their auctions now?

i've been noticing so many sellers on ebay shill bidding their aucitons. it seems like most of the high end sellers either create new accounts or have one of their buddies bid up the card. i was bidding on a 1939 playball ted williams psa 5, which the winning bidder has a 75% bid activity with the seller. There's already a thread started about the bird/magic psa 9 scam. it doesn't look like ebay is going to do anything since this has been going on for quite some time now. it's just sickening. what happened to all of the honest sellers? what can ebay or the collectors do to combat this problem?
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Comments

  • msassinmsassin Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭


    << <i>i've been noticing so many sellers on ebay shill bidding their aucitons. it seems like most of the high end sellers either create new accounts or have one of their buddies bid up the card. i was bidding on a 1939 playball ted williams psa 5, which the winning bidder has a 75% bid activity with the seller. There's already a thread started about the bird/magic psa 9 scam. it doesn't look like ebay is going to do anything since this has been going on for quite some time now. it's just sickening. what happened to all of the honest sellers? what can ebay or the collectors do to combat this problem? >>



    That Birg/Magic card was not shilled by the auction seller.
  • YES

    Why would Ebay care? Its more money in their pocket as well.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,310 ✭✭✭
    What corncobb said.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • firedawg45firedawg45 Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭
    Yes every consigner and auction house shills! It's very obvious
    # 2 Pete Rose Master Set , also
    collecting 1977 topps baseball in psa 9 and psa 10
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭
    never before have the words "crap" and "shoot" been so universally applicable.


  • << <i>

    << <i>YES

    Why would Ebay care? Its more money in their pocket as well. >>




    Agreed. The only thing more opportunistic for shillers than the auction houses on ebay are the auctions houses off ebay. >>



    Ignorance is bliss. There is far more oversight, today, in the auction house business than on ebay....by a very long shot.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>YES

    Why would Ebay care? Its more money in their pocket as well. >>




    Agreed. The only thing more opportunistic for shillers than the auction houses on ebay are the auctions houses off ebay. >>



    Ignorance is bliss. There is far more oversight, today, in the auction house business than on ebay....by a very long shot. >>



    Prove it. >>



    I have first hand knowledge of what the FBI and postal authorities are doing. As I was sitting at a live auction table and the FBI agent got up from sitting next to me, walked to the back of the stage, and handed a subpoena to an auction house executive, I wasn't surprised. Then I click on all of the idiotic looking auctions on ebay and see 100% bidding of 50+ items with one seller...nah, that isn't proof. You are just ignorant. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing. I suggest you open your eyes and listen sometimes instead of being so defensive.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>YES

    Why would Ebay care? Its more money in their pocket as well. >>




    Agreed. The only thing more opportunistic for shillers than the auction houses on ebay are the auctions houses off ebay. >>



    Ignorance is bliss. There is far more oversight, today, in the auction house business than on ebay....by a very long shot. >>



    Prove it. >>



    I have first hand knowledge of what the FBI and postal authorities are doing. As I was sitting at a live auction table and the FBI agent got up from sitting next to me, walked to the back of the stage, and handed a subpoena to an auction house executive, I wasn't surprised. Then I click on all of the idiotic looking auctions on ebay and see 100% bidding of 50+ items with one seller...nah, that isn't proof. You are just ignorant. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing. I suggest you open your eyes and listen sometimes instead of being so defensive. >>



    Your "first hand knowledge" is proof of nothing, and your insults don't help you make your case.

    All one has to do is look at how off ebay auction houses run their "business", with completely blind auctions, and use some common sense to see that they are setup to favor those who want to do bad things. >>



    The difference between ignorance and stupidity is "knowing". Now you know, take it for what it's worth. I am done trying to enlighten you. Happy collecting.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭
    if i could teach my eyes to listen, i'd never eat another double cheeseburger with extra bacon and i'd still be single. image
  • ClockworkAngelClockworkAngel Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭
    I don't believe PWCC does. I won a recent auction he had for the 1976 Brett PSA 9 and my high bid was 10% higher than what I won it for. There was an opportunity to shill that and it did not happen.
    The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase
    TheClockworkAngelCollection
  • I should add, and I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea from my posts, I think there is fraud in all aspects of the hobby. Where there is a lot of money, and not much regulation, there will be those trying take advantage of others. My opinion (we all have one) is that there is currently more fraud going on, on ebay, than with auction houses. Auction houses are currently under a microscope and I hope they stay that way. And no, that doesn't mean a friend can't bid on a friends stuff that is consigned to an auction house, but there is less fraud overall than on ebay, imo. And not ALL ebay auctions have fraud in them. I buy stuff on ebay almost daily so I am fairly in tune.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You will never get rid of shilling. Just don't bid more than you are willing to pay and that's the end of the problem.

    It's very frustrating to see this happening on ebay, but where money is concerned, you're going to have a lot of dishonest people.

    Joe
    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 3,531 ✭✭✭
    If the FBI agent issued me a subpoena.....I would just lose all of the auction records. Never mind....that's already been done.

    Bill
  • All the reason to give buy it now/best offer sellers more business. At least the ones with non-museum pricing. They are actually probably trying to protect their cards from selling too cheap, which means they avoid schilling. Reward the good guys.


  • << <i>If the FBI agent issued me a subpoena.....I would just lose all of the auction records. Never mind....that's already been done.

    Bill >>



    People get a bit smarter as time goes. No doubt those auction records getting "lost" or deleted was a mistake in an investigation. However, my guess is that if you got a subpoena now it would be too late. Once your website is taken over AND THEN you get the subpoena, you are kind of screwed. Not that I would know anything about that though....
  • Leon your are a dealer right well I will always believe you.


  • << <i> what can ebay or the collectors do to combat this problem? >>



    For one be as informed on how people are able to shill and try to avoid those situations, granted not always possible. But when you are bidding where shilling is possible be careful. In Ah's its never leave a max bid, right now the only way on some auctions on eBay to stay protected is to simply not bid.

    I do agree with Leon, right now I have a lot more faith in most of the Auction Houses vs Ebay. A few years ago it was just the opposite, the FBI investigation into Mastro/Allen IMO has scared a lot of the AH's into at least being much more careful, a few auctions like REA, B & L and LOTG being very transparent and having clear rules against any type of shill, and things like VCP are a huge help to research past bidding.

    To me the current problems on eBay stem from all the consignment houses and the fact that eBay has no way of knowing if a consignor is bidding on his own item. IMO this is happening a ton and gets ignored by the consignment houses because its money to them and even when they are caught as happened here a few months back they still don't do anything about it. I saw a post above about how a certain card from PWCC was not shilled. That is the thing about the consignment houses in that they do have many honest consignors who do not shill their own auctions so you are correct in that not every card is shilled but because of this it gives the real crooks a great cover who take full advantage of it.

    I still bid and win with the consignment houses on ebay but its only about 10% of what it used to be, its really down to cards I really need and even then im real picky about what I bid.


  • << <i>Leon your are a dealer right well I will always believe you. >>



    I buy and sell and run a small auction company as well as manage another chat board. I am a passionate collector too. I would always be careful in the hobby no matter who says what. That being said I don't tell stories and try to act as ethically as possible. It sort of irritates me when folks talk about things they don't know anything about.

    I also try my best to help keep the hobby as clean as possible. I have assisted authorities, in the hobby, many times and will continue to as much as possible. No doubt, just like anyone else, I am being watched too. With everything I know, getting back to the original question, I feel there is more oversight in auction house business than there is on ebay. That is just my opinion though and I don't, nor could, really have empirical evidence. BTW, I have also been a member of the sports fraud detection program on ebay. I am not in that program anymore but have very good hobby friends that are and we communicate frequently.
  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 5,076 ✭✭✭
    I think it's politically correct to use the term "safety bid" instead.

    Just saying.

    IMF
    Successful dealings with Wcsportscards94558, EagleEyeKid, SamsGirl214, Volver, DwayneDrain, Oaksey25, Griffins, Cardfan07, Etc.
  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    << what can ebay or the collectors do to combat this problem? >>

    Stop looking at the bid history.
  • BoopottsBoopotts Posts: 6,825 ✭✭


    << <i> what can ebay or the collectors do to combat this problem? >>



    Never bid more than you're comfortable paying.
  • CSCCSC Posts: 100


    << <i>Saying you have a "feeling" doesn't prove anything ... nor does saying you run this or that company ... or that you have history with anything. There's simply no accountability in the off ebay auctions, no way to track who may or may not be controlling prices artificially.

    With ebay at least you can see some indicator of the parties at hand ... with the off ebay auction houses you're left with nothing ... plus no recourse if they don't deliver on an item as described since their accepted payment methods give you no protection.

    Leon Luckey, I did a quick Google search on you since I've never heard of you and it seems you have a horrendous history on the Net54 boards:
    http://forum1.aimoo.com/vintagebaseballcards/The-TRUTH-about-Leon-Luckey-and-Net-54-1-4694

    As Leon is a new member here on CU with very few posts (no way to know if he is indeed the same person as who had issues on Net54) I urge others to be extremely careful in taking stock in what he says and perhaps explore the link above. >>



    I have not seen such a combination of ignorance and conviction at the same time in awhile. On one side, the passion is a little endearing. On the other side, not sure what to think of a man who call himself Bubble Bath Girl.

    Paul - The collecting world is way bigger than the CU & 78/79T PSA 10 world in which you have command. You are a one eye man in the land of the blind.

  • MooseDogMooseDog Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭
    Paul aka bubblebathgirl -

    Just in case CSC wasn't clear enough...

    You'd be best advised to do a little more research. Leon IS the Net54 Boards. Besides running the Boards, he has a fairly successful auction company, and yeah it's one of the "good" ones (read HONEST).

    Leon does an outstanding job of keeping the numb-nuts off the board and keeping (most) of the heated discussions from getting out of hand. From someone who once ran a message board (non-collecting) much smaller in size I can't begin to tell you what a time sink that is. I certainly admire his dedication.

    I doubt that you'd find a more passionate collector and a person of INTEGRITY as you would certainly find if you take time to read the Net54 boards.

  • Thanks for the kind words guys. I know of that Aimoo board. The originator and owner of it is currently in Federal Prison and has been for the last 2+ yrs running. Google Jimmy Scott Elkins in VA if you want a good laugh. take care

    I should mention too, that each and every thing that Elkins said on that Aimoo board is patently false. That is all I will say on this subject and most likely in this thread. Time to go collect and have fun.
  • MattyCMattyC Posts: 1,347
    Jesus. So much Sturm und Drang here on the boards. So much drama. So many conspiracy theories. So relatively little about cards, their nuances, and appreciation/sharing of them.

    From the macro: auction houses shilling, TPG companies being in on shady dealings, the hobby entering downward spirals... To the personal: digging up things and threads about people and posting online. I don't know about everyone else, but I've been around here a while due to my love of cards and talking cards with fellow enthusiasts, and this kind of stuff is so off-putting.

    Healthy skepticism and a critical eye are one thing; it's great to help each other not get cheated. If there's a specific scam out there I am all for disseminating knowledge that can help collectors avoid being victimized.

    But that is specific, and the general griping-- I guess what I'm saying is venting is healthy but doesn't it seem there's a fine line between venting or healthy skepticism and just general negativity that becomes off-putting? And while it is admittedly easy to just not read the thread, often one does read it-- because one thinks there might be something specific and valuable to read, and the title is also there in some cases and that's in your face and unavoidable. So yes, while we can just choose to not click on the link, let's not deny that the negativity has been put out there, is now palpable, and affects one's whole mood-- when the impetus behind logging on was, I hope, to enjoy cards.

    Q: Does every seller shill auctions?
    My answer, FWIW: Don't care. If I see something I like, I know what I'd like to pay for it. If I get it for that number, great. If lower, great. If I don't go higher, no problem. And another ALWAYS comes along. So what's the beef?

    Q: Is the hobby headed for a crash?
    A: Don't care. I love cards whether they are worth something X or 10X or X-1000. Happy to have cards worth alot. Happy to buy more new ones if the hobby goes down as a whole.

    Q: Do some dealers post high prices?
    A: Don't care. Just find what you like and pay a price with which you are happy.

    Q: Are non ebay auction houses evil dens of sin?
    A: Don't care. Can't be proven either way. And it's utterly moot as a whole topic if you pay a price with which you are happy for an item you really desire.

    Q: Should we rage out when we disagree with graders rendering an opinion on a card?
    A: Why waste energy? We as buyers ultimately grade the card when we set its price. If it's a dog 10, we don't have to pay 10 prices for it. If some blissfully ignorant putz buys the number on the label and not the card inside and is happy with his purchase, hey, let'em be happy image

    My .02-- if the hobby gives anyone such a headache, why stay in it?

    But if you love cards and they are a mellowing source of enjoyment, then why not CREATE CONTENT here for ourselves that does just that: celebrates cards, educates ourselves about cards. With the same energy behind the vitriol and invective, why not shine a spotlight on cards one loves that other collectors might not know about? The latter seems like so much more fun.

    Daily life breaks enough of our balls as it is-- the last thing I want is for this hobby to start breaking them, too. Rooting for a team and watching sportsgames should be pure fun, but we all know that often can be rage-inducing and ball-breaking. Women should ideally also be a source of extreme pleasure and enjoyment-- yet they, too, often get around to breaking the aforemetioned balls at some point. Kids are a mixed bag, as well.

    But cards-- no card has ever chafed me or broken my balls. My cards just hang out, stay quiet, and take my brain to chill, enjoyable places-- and away from anything currently breaking said balls.

    Maybe the answer is to create a separate forum for ranting or venting or unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, or general hang-ups. I don't know.
  • CSCCSC Posts: 100


    << <i>Thanks for the kind words guys. I know of that Aimoo board. The originator and owner of it is currently in Federal Prison and has been for the last 2+ yrs running. Google Jimmy Scott Elkins in VA if you want a good laugh. take care >>



    I hope you can sleep at night knowing that putting banner ads up sent him to prisonimage

    Maybe a little irresponsible, but an interesting poll to potentially add: More Schilling - Auction House (only listing the most reputable) or eBay? Then a poll for biggest schiller within a list of auction houses.


  • << <i>

    << <i>Thanks for the kind words guys. I know of that Aimoo board. The originator and owner of it is currently in Federal Prison and has been for the last 2+ yrs running. Google Jimmy Scott Elkins in VA if you want a good laugh. take care >>



    I hope you can sleep at night knowing that putting banner ads up sent him to prisonimage

    Maybe a little irresponsible, but an interesting poll to potentially add: More Schilling - Auction House (only listing the most reputable) or eBay? Then a poll for biggest schiller within a list of auction houses. >>



    I sleep well at night, thanks image.

    The first part about a poll maybe but I would not allow the second part on the board I help manage. Just like when and if someone gets banned, there is no poll or happiness involved. Some aspects of the hobby, and managing a board, are anything but fun. It is what it is though and overall I still get great joy in the hobby, collecting and hanging out with friends I have made over the years. It is what you make it.
  • CakesCakes Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭


    << <i>if i could teach my eyes to listen, i'd never eat another double cheeseburger with extra bacon and i'd still be single. image >>



    If you are married consider yourself very lucky.
    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Until they change their structure and method of "business" the potential for fraud in the off ebay auction houses with their blind bidding structure will always be greater than in the on ebay auction houses.

    If you want to talk volume of sales that's one thing, but you simply can not argue that the off ebay auction houses have a system in place that's safer than on ebay. Saying you have a "feeling" doesn't prove anything ... nor does saying you run this or that company ... or that you have history with anything. There's simply no accountability in the off ebay auctions, no way to track who may or may not be controlling prices artificially.

    With ebay at least you can see some indicator of the parties at hand ... with the off ebay auction houses you're left with nothing ... plus no recourse if they don't deliver on an item as described since their accepted payment methods give you no protection.

    Leon Luckey, I did a quick Google search on you since I've never heard of you and it seems you have a horrendous history on the Net54 boards:
    http://forum1.aimoo.com/vintagebaseballcards/The-TRUTH-about-Leon-Luckey-and-Net-54-1-4694

    As Leon is a new member here on CU with very few posts (no way to know if he is indeed the same person as who had issues on Net54) I urge others to be extremely careful in taking stock in what he says and perhaps explore the link above. >>



    The Aimoo board was set up with the sole mission of slamming Leon. Consider the source, the author of those posts is in jail, and among other things actively supported dog and chicken (the actual word is censored here) fights.
    I've dealt with Leon for 10 years, and he's gone out of his way to be ethical both to me and to further the hobby.

    Questioning his ethics is way off base, he's one of the good guys. And as mod of Net 54 is probably privy to more inside info than the rest of us combined.

    I'll agree since the grand jury started investigating Mastro/Legendary in Aug. '08 auction houses are under a microscope. Not saying they are all perfect, but the rampant bumping from the early part of this century is much less now.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>if i could teach my eyes to listen, i'd never eat another double cheeseburger with extra bacon and i'd still be single. image >>



    If you are married consider yourself very lucky. >>



    indeed, for love is blind, my friend.
  • As someone who has been a member of Net54 for at least 10 years, everything I have ever seen from Leon is top notch, honest and straight forward. Has great hobby knowledge and seems to enjoy helping other collectors as well as just contributing to the hobby in general.

    First rate IMO and the way he runs net54 is hands down the best board around. He tries to be fair when making decisions that he feels are in the best interest of the board and not himself.


  • << <i>the author of those posts is in jail, and among other things actively supported dog and chicken (the actual word is censored here) fights. >>



    And he is an anti-semite.
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭
    Paul- the same tactics can be used on ebay. I think the difference is the Feds are now really looking at this, and it's much easier to put a $9 million dollar auction house under a magnifying glass than a seller of a few dozen $30 cards. Especially if the auction houses rival is chumming the waters around the feds and a tabloid writer with info all the time.

    What do you think is the solution? Ebay covered up bidders names years ago. AH's don't reveal the bidders (except under rare circumstances) and I know some buyers prefer to remain anonymous, especially with 6 and 7 figure purchases. It's not a perfect system, but I think current events have made it safer than it was just a few years ago.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • Wow leon I didnt know you were such a prim and proper person. Great link Griffins.
  • vladguerrerovladguerrero Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭
    lol at Paul's initial comments about Leon, classic.

    There's shilling on Ebay and auction houses. Personally, I find the consigning on Ebay phenomenon hilarious. The main difference to me is that EBAY doesn't shill auctions for their benefit. I got screwed over by an AH (not the consignor) and unless it's something I have to have (I would still put my collecting interests above AH politics!) I'm done with AH.
  • flatfoot816flatfoot816 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭
    holy smoke==thought I left all the bickering in Family Court after I left today

    MattyC--I would be remiss for not commending your comments--especially the Q and A part--all of it accurate
  • vladguerrerovladguerrero Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭


    << <i>MattyC--I would be remiss for not commending your comments--especially the Q and A part--all of it accurate >>



    Philosophically I would agree, and I think it's great MattyC has achieved his collecting zen, but I don't think it's accurate for most collectors or board members. I don't think the majority would be happy with their cards if their Set Registry was worth the same as a set of Elvis playing cards.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Paul,

    By now, everyone is quite aware that you hate major auction houses and won't deal with them. That's fine, and that is your option, but I think the
    problem here is that you keep trying to impose your viewpoints on other collectors, many of whom are quite seasoned in card collecting from various eras
    and who have had many positive experiences with different auction houses, which often offer product that is not readibly available on ebay.
    There is life beyond ebay and paypal. Are there people trying to game the system? Most certainly, both on ebay and in the major auction house formats. as collectors, though, it would be foolish to exclude a venue for acquiring items for your collection just because you believe there is a possibility that the bidding "may' be manipulated.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • MattyCMattyC Posts: 1,347
    Paul,

    Your dislike for AH's is well noted from these boards, to say the least image I'm personally all for you converting the masses into avoiding AH's like the plague, so that there will be less competition for the things I want!

    But seriously, instituting utter transparency wouldn't be fair to those legions of buyers who prefer to remain anonymous. I know some guys who spend big money and would be concerned about their collections being out there and thus becoming potential targets for heists, and others just crave their privacy. Also, items as rarefied as nine-digit paintings are routinely auctioned to anonymous bidders, so with such lofty precedents out there with anonymous bidding I don't see sea changes made to the process anytime soon. In addition, knowing a bidder's name would not necessarily prevent John Smith from placing bids to boost the price of his buddy Mark Johnson's item at auction. I am, however, all for AH's using credit cards and PayPal-- I might have reached for some really awesome pieces in the past and paid off over time if that were an option!



  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am, however, all for AH's using credit cards and PayPal-- I might have reached for some really awesome pieces in the past and paid off over time if that were an option!



    Considering what you buy now, Matty, if you were to be able to buy on credit, I can see you getting that Mint 9 52 mantle, after all, LOL!!

    Actually, I like the fact that you can't use a credit card for auction house purchases--it takes away the possibility of me charging up the CC, LOL!


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • I really don't understand the shilling thing...i just start my auctions at the lowest price i am willing to accept for a card...simple


  • << <i>I am, however, all for AH's using credit cards and PayPal-- I might have reached for some really awesome pieces in the past and paid off over time if that were an option! >>



    I thought you always Paid in Full.
  • goraidersgoraiders Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Paul,

    By now, everyone is quite aware that you hate major auction houses and won't deal with them. That's fine, and that is your option, but I think the
    problem here is that you keep trying to impose your viewpoints on other collectors, many of whom are quite seasoned in card collecting from various eras
    and who have had many positive experiences with different auction houses, which often offer product that is not readibly available on ebay.
    There is life beyond ebay and paypal. Are there people trying to game the system? Most certainly, both on ebay and in the major auction house formats. as collectors, though, it would be foolish to exclude a venue for acquiring items for your collection just because you believe there is a possibility that the bidding "may' be manipulated. >>



    Lock the thread now!! Grote just nailed it.
    J.R.
    Needs'
    1972 Football-9's high#'s
    1965 Football-8's
    1958 Topps FB-7-8
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭
    Paul, the problem is after a certain point you just aren't going to find a lot of the nicer items on ebay- ever. The high end stuff almost always goes to auction houses or sells privately. I haven't been to the National in about 4 years, but the last time I did I was really frustrated by the fact that even on dealers tables they often didn't want to sell things, but rather held them off for maximum return at an AH. I've combed ebay every day for years for a few items I"m collecting and have yet to find any of them- but have picked up a few dozen of those in AH's during the same period.

    Add to this that since the collapse of '08 the underbidder often isn't as present as he was on ebay when money was a bit looser, and you realize ebay is no where near what ebay was anymore.
    I can certainly understand buyers not wanting their name associated with their purchases- especially 6 figures and up. I know a few who have been outted for that and were absolutely blitzed with offers of other items at multiples of the going rate. And dealers are increasingly trying to find ways to not be associated with AH purchases in order to not have their cost for those items tracked by vcp.

    There has only been 2 occasions where I've been ripped off by an auction house. Once I got an empty FedEx box and the AH stalled on the refund until a mutual friend stepped in and got it taken care of. The other time the AH didn't want to pay me for my consignment, and Leon stepped in and got me and a few others paid. Other than that it's always been flawless. I wish I could say the same for my ebay transactions.

    Neither system is perfect, but all in all my AH transactions have been more consistent than the ebay ones.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's



  • << <i>I don't believe PWCC does. I won a recent auction he had for the 1976 Brett PSA 9 and my high bid was 10% higher than what I won it for. There was an opportunity to shill that and it did not happen. >>



    I got a great deal on a very nice card. I dont see them shilling either.
  • ClockworkAngelClockworkAngel Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I don't believe PWCC does. I won a recent auction he had for the 1976 Brett PSA 9 and my high bid was 10% higher than what I won it for. There was an opportunity to shill that and it did not happen. >>



    I got a great deal on a very nice card. I dont see them shilling either. >>



    Rather than always emphasizing the negative, we should be pointing out the positive and honest ones.
    The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase
    TheClockworkAngelCollection
  • CSCCSC Posts: 100


    << <i>Tim,

    I call things as I see them. And with AHs and their hidden bidding I see it as venue setup to deceive. Deception can hurt our hobby and bring down the value of items we all collect. When extremely high value cards have their values undercut by the acts of dubious AH purveyors it hurts everyone.

    I maintain my point of view because I see things can be better, and really, should be. There are those who post contrary to me, on these boards relating to this subject, because the AHs are in their best interest financially ... they have a stake in them. Then there are those who have long done business with them assuming everything has been on the up and up ... and the idea that they've been treading in dangerous waters is unacceptable to them.

    I fully believe that there are plenty of honorable people who work in this hobby, in all venues, but there are also those who are not so honorable, and they will prey on the naive ... in the venue that is easiest for them and is the least risky while providing the greatest profit. >>



    Believing in a grade of 10 is far more naive than bidding in an REA auction.
  • MattyCMattyC Posts: 1,347


    << <i>

    << <i>I am, however, all for AH's using credit cards and PayPal-- I might have reached for some really awesome pieces in the past and paid off over time if that were an option! >>



    I thought you always Paid in Full. >>



    Touché, Maurice. Touché. Hope you liked the movie!
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭
    All this negative drama going on seems to be coming from people who love to collect and buy cards. 1 thought that comes to mind when seeing all of this is that maybe people think prices are too high? Looking for someone something to blame for that reason. Ive seen several threads on here about people complaining why didnt my max bid win a card that normally sells for 20.00 but it ended at 28.00 ect. Seems like a lot of blaming and point of the finger. We cant have everything we want. Just bid what you are happy with. But if its something that you know you wont see again for a while. Well bid higher. The problem with that is there are more than 1 person in your boat when it comes to items like that. Its a hobby and look at it like one. I just see people bit##ing about the $ part. If its shilled then dont bid. It will come back agian if it was. And for less money because of it. Just know what you are buying and bid accordingly.

    Also the example of the 1980 Bird Johnson PSA 9. I think that was beyond shilling. But someone trying to manipulate the VCP average.
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