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Is it just me or does this 1917 walker in MS-66 look totally awesome even for the PCGS MS-66 grade?

orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Comments

  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful coin, but from the photos I'd guess the luster keeps it from going any higher.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like a scan from Heritage. If so, that might explain why the luster looks so muted. Regardless, I think the coin is nice, but am not blown away by it.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like a nice coin. From those pictures, I can't think how one could tell the coin is awesome for the grade.
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Has that subdued lonely fealingimage
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Beautiful coin, but from the photos I'd guess the luster keeps it from going any higher. >>

    My thought too.
    When in doubt, don't.


  • << <i>Looks like a scan from Heritage. If so, that might explain why the luster looks so muted. Regardless, I think the coin is nice, but am not blown away by it. >>



    image
  • Maybe not "awesome" but very nice, hard to tell about luster though.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A coin that is graded MS-66 should look awesome. Having said that I see some small marks in the large picture that limit its grade to MS-66. The luster might lead one to think "crack-out," but we can't see the luster; and my experience, with that kind of toning and "look," would lead me to believe that this coin is not "a blazer." In fact many of the Walkers I've seen from this era, and I'll admit that I'm not the "grand guru" in this series, have a satin finish, not blazing luster
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd have probably said 65-66 from the photo based mostly upon obverse rim nicks. Very nice strike.
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,077 ✭✭✭
    Everybody knows that if it doesn't have a sticker, it must be an overgraded POS. Since this coin does not have a sticker.... image

    It does look like a nice coin. Mark free surfaces, and what looks like nice original toning. I'm assuming the luster is pretty strong through the toning, that is usually the determining factor for between a 65 and 66.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, I agree Heritage did not take the best photo of this coin.

    But man o' man, look at the detail of that hand with the split thumb. I have never see a more perfect FAT hand!!!image

    And also, I realize this is not a 67, never pushed for it to be one. But I have never seen the right combination of strike, bullet toning and luster on these early walkers.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not for me, a bit to crusty.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oreville,
    Based on the photos, i would be intrigued enough to look at it in hand. Heritage and many others struggle to take adequate photos of Walkers. It does have a fine strike and the toning looks as if it may be quite nice but luster is possibly muted or at least not apparent from these scans. I would be concerned about and want to look closer at possible small round moisture marks below IGWT and between the L and I. Could be on the holder but i doubt it.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Looks like a scan from Heritage. If so, that might explain why the luster looks so muted. Regardless, I think the coin is nice, but am not blown away by it. >>



    by jove i think he is right. after looking at the hologram i think this was scanned by an above-average scanner. if you check the date of the sale and other images from around that time one can deduce it for certain rather quickly.

    i know a good time period for HA archived images is 2006
    .

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  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    That is a superb strike and a very clean coin, hits-wise.

    However, I'm not so sure I'm ready to call it a 66+ or 67 either -- you can't really judge the luster and the toning doesn't do too much for me either.
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • I'd put that at 65+ strong. Tech 66 I 'spose to some.

    Eric
  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tough crowd, I love this coin.
    Many happy BST transactions
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will state this publicly.

    Breakdown has the finest 1917 walker ever graded, in my opinion. You have to see his walker to believe it! His is not merely awesome, it is more than incredible!!

    This walker is no competition for his walker!!
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Beautiful coin, but from the photos I'd guess the luster keeps it from going any higher. >>



    What luster ?
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    terrific coin- easily 66 and possibly higher

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love it too. But then again, us old dinosaurs from the 70's and 80's loved these types of near perfect originally toned coins long before the dipping craze became the only
    way to get MS67 grades. Unimprovable for a fully original, well-toned gem. A dipped out white gem would not impress me more than this coin, regardless of how bright
    the luster might burn. It's toned like a 19th century original silver gem...the way it probably should be. How many gem 1917's that came out of original rolls broken up in the
    last 20-30 yrs are still bright white and never dipped? I'm always amazed at the high percentage of hobbyists and dealers that just hate this look on older silver coins. I'd guess
    they would hate the Norweb MS67 1893-s dollar as well.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,175 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I love it too. But then again, us old dinosaurs from the 70's and 80's loved these types of near perfect originally toned coins long before the dipping craze became the only
    way to get MS67 grades. Unimprovable for a fully original, well-toned gem. A dipped out white gem would not impress me more than this coin, regardless of how bright
    the luster might burn. It's toned like a 19th century original silver gem...the way it probably should be. How many gem 1917's that came out of original rolls broken up in the
    last 20-30 yrs are still bright white and never dipped? I'm always amazed at the high percentage of hobbyists and dealers that just hate this look on older silver coins. I'd guess
    they would hate the Norweb MS67 1893-s dollar as well. >>



    I agree totally.

    I'd much rather own this originally toned with somewhat subdued luster 1917 half than a blast white brilliant (dipped) one.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

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  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just haven't responded as I thought others would point out the staple scratch under her
    outstretched arm....

    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭
    I love it.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Awesome coin! Really nice for grade, thanks for sharing.
    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just haven't responded as I thought others would point out the staple scratch under her
    outstretched arm....

    bob >>



    Do you mean the line that is directly beneath the stars? If so, then that is part of the design. Here is another-

    image
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • JBNJBN Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The detail on Liberty's cap, and the absolutely full hand with fully defined index finger, can only lead one to conclude this is at the ultra top end of the strike spectrum.

    Looking at the reverse, the toning highlights the detail in the eagle's leg feathers, making for a very nice look.

    It looks like a wonderful half dollar.

    Congratulations.
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    Eye appeal will keep this at MS-66 which I thought was a generous grade for the coin in this image.
    Chat Board Lingo

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  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did the PCGS MS-66 walker in the OP post once come from RARCOA 20 to 30 years ago?
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭
    Very nice strike, but it probably took a dip at some point (resulting in that washed-out, subdued luster) and was given ample time to retone.

    Regardless, the piece is very representative of the grade. image
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No way to be 100% sure but I don't this coin was ever dipped. There's enough toning on it now that the original luster underneath there just won't blast through
    like a white coin. Nearly every originally toned bust and seated coin has this issue. I remember back in 1988 when a local dealer purchased an 1893 barber quarter over
    the counter that was purchased/put away by the family at time of issue. It had been wrapped up in tissue paper for almost 100 yrs which made it turn a very deep blue,
    bordering on black. The coin was essentially flawless. The luster still came through but it was obvious it was well subdued. It ended up grading NGC MS66 in 1988 and I
    brokered it to a major PCGS dealer/grader who loved the look....as well as the orig paper/envelope the coin has been placed in 100 yrs earlier. I think today such a coin
    would be lucky to get a 65 grade and most likely would get dipped to make it "more saleable."
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This MS-66 1917 walker looks exactly as it did back in the 1980's when I fouled up my first chance to buy this coin.

    That would then mean this coin only had a maximum of 65 years to tone then dip and then retone. I highly doubt that this coin was ever dipped. Had it been dipped it would had to have been dipped in the 1940's and 1950's for the coin to have had enough time to tone in a bullet fashion.

    I am not aware that dipped coins are even capable of acquiring bullet toning.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's unfortunate that I believe many of the comments are being influenced heavily by the inferior style of the images. Better images would likely produce a different discussion and might allow greater appreciation for the coin.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    17-P Walkers come hammered. This coin is just "too original" for the current generation of brightness freaks. Scrumptious to the "dino" numismatist.

    Sadly, RR, the Norweb 93-S is no longer original, but DOA via conservation.

    Many of the somewhat interesting coins the OP shows us make me sick...... with envy image

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well at least somewhat interesting is better than boooooooring?

    I take that as a somewhat of a compliment. image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This thread does a good job of contrasting those who enjoy the dino style original toned coins vs the moderately toned coin fans vs those who prefer the bright lustrous flashy coins.

    There seems to be three camps and quite frankly I like to be in all three camps as I find having only one kind of looking coin all of the time does eventually become a bit boring to me.

    I admit I like variety.

    Those who know my walkers may remember my 1921 Jack Lee Walker which is in the mostly white flashy lustrous camp whereas the 1919 and 1920 walkers are increasingly toned looking by comparison.

    I kind of like the different looks so that the set does not become too "same looking."
    I do not expect a 1947 walker to be anywhere nearly as toned as 1917 walker.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    breakdown's 1917 walker. It could be in an MS-68 holder and I would not complain.

    image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow! That looks like a nice freakin' coin!
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>17-P Walkers come hammered. This coin is just "too original" for the current generation of brightness freaks. Scrumptious to the "dino" numismatist.

    Sadly, RR, the Norweb 93-S is no longer original, but DOA via conservation.
    Many of the somewhat interesting coins the OP shows us make me sick...... with envy image >>




    My mistake. I meant to say the Vermeulle 1893-s dollar - an "undipped" MS67. image............that coin was awesome....at least to this dino.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Robert (Oreville) knows how much I like my 1917 so it was nice of him to post the image. Along with my 19-S and 27-S, it is one of my favorites.

    So did you receive the OP coin yet? If so, how happy are you?

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    breakdown:

    It will be in Far Hills, NJ tomorrow directly from Heritage.

    I am anxiously awaiting results.

    I am expecting results by Friday the 14th.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This coin received a greenie today.

    It had been submitted before as a MS-66, received a greenie under a different serial number per JA.

    Apparently it was cracked out and received the same grade from PCGS again but interestingly was never resubmitted to CAC.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It had been submitted before as a MS-66, received a greenie under a different serial number per JA.

    Apparently it was cracked out and received the same grade from PCGS again but interestingly was never resubmitted to CAC. >>



    Wow, how the heck did JA know the coin had been in under a different serial #???? Does he remember every coin, or do they do something that we don't know about, like scans or photos?
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Indeed JA has a memory like an elephant!
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!

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