I still say the new "altered surfaces" definition means the sniffer found something that could be removed by "Restoration". Of course it's more profitable to bag the coin and let you try again.
Maybe a different set of eyes would take the "genuine" coins i get back all the time and they would say, doesnt need anything, that there coin is good as gold.
We have dipped coins in holders that are "market" acceptable. Nothing is safe, or sacred. If it turns black and it's silver, get it restored to it's original blast white, for a fee. That's moving forward, but not necessarily logically. I cannot flip flop. Never liked dipping or conserving and never will. That's not my forte in this hobby, market, or industry. C'est la vie. To each their own.
StewartBlay: <<And the World of Dipping and Stripping has gone public at PCGS>>
Experts at the PCGS have been dipping and stripping, without fanfare, for years. On CCE, one PCGS grader has repeatedly advertised dipping services, especially for Walkers and Morgans.
Stewart Blay<<What is not said in the PCGS promotion of their new restoration service is what they will do when a coin is RUINED. And if you speak to any knowledgeable numismatist including David Hall, there is a chance your coin sent in for restoration can be ruined.>>
Well said, there is no doubt about it. Presumably, the financial value of already PCGS certified coins is guaranteed. Even so, if a coin with decades of natural toning is dipped, much of the history and personality of the coin is destroyed. Knowledgeable people who would like to own the coin in the future are being harmed. Indeed, when a really rare coin is dipped, many people in the coin collecting community may be harmed. Such coins are important to people in addition to those who own them.
While there are unusual cases where the benefits of a dipping outweigh the harm done, Stewart is saying that starting such a public services sends the wrong message and will lead to much harm being done. I am concerned that he may correct, though I have a more open mind regarding this topic. It is best not to prejudge this service.
Mike1: <<There should absolutely be a code on the slab that indicates the coin has had this service done to it. >>
I agree, though I doubt that such a policy will be implemented.
StewartBlay: <<. Anyway just about everything I post goes poof anyway.>>
Stewart’s insights continue to live in my articles:
I have a few questions---Will "restoring" a coin result in it flunking the sniffer test? Will PCGS indicate on the slab label that the coin has been "restored" and, if not, should they? What happens if PCGS "restores" a coin that has already been slabbed by PCGS and it results in an a "no grade" coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed. But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me.
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed. But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed. But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
I should have clarified that I meant in the sense of almost all substances outside of acetone
Conservation, Restoration, or Coin Doctoring , you can spin it anyway you want, the coins are being cleaned for a buck. PCGS should rethink their direction and what they preached over the years. This seems to be a money grab that brings PCGS down to a level to their competitors. I am very disappointed in this move and if I was on the board I would have strongly voted against this policy....
preaching one ethic while selling another may make good business sense, but is it good for the collecting community ? no matter how you spin it, cleaning a toned coin to enhance the value is doctoring. toning a cleaned coin to enhance the value is doctoring, the methods are different but the goal is the same...
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed. But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
It's the DIY reholdering that gets a little tricky.
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed. But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
It's the DIY reholdering that gets a little tricky. >>
I was obviously talking about a raw coin. If a slabbed coin has PVC contamination the slabbing service will fix it for free.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PCGS Restoration Service is not an automatic upgrade service. It exists to restore coins with legitimate problems.
No the 1945 Merc 10c in this thread is not a candidate for restoration. We will not dip a naturally toned coin just to make it white.
A lot of coins have been ruined over the past few years by overly aggressive practices. There are too many coins in holders who have had their surfaces stripped. That's a trap we are not going to fall in.
We see coins with problems everyday. For example a really nice gem with fingerprints. Today it ends up in a holder 2-3 points below what it would without the finger prints. Coins with PVC. Coins that have been stained or ugly toning because they were not properly stored. Coins with verdigris or spots. Coins that someone has applied a foreign substance to. The list of legitimate candidates for restoration is long.
PCGS has always been the leader when it comes to protecting the collector. We are the only company to publicly call out the coin doctors. We've invested millions in technology designed to stop the doctoring. Some purists might say that a coin should never be helped no matter what happens. We think there is a happy medium. Our priority will always be to maintain a coin's originality and preserve its beauty.
I guess I'm not up in arms about this at all, neither am I giddy about the announcement. This is the business of PCGS and the owner of a coin and, as far as I can determine, we all have the ability to buy the coins that meet our standards while rejecting others.
<< <i>I guess I'm not up in arms about this at all, neither am I giddy about the announcement. This is the business of PCGS and the owner of a coin and, as far as I can determine, we all have the ability to buy the coins that meet our standards while rejecting others. >>
<< <i>I guess I'm not up in arms about this at all, neither am I giddy about the announcement. This is the business of PCGS and the owner of a coin and, as far as I can determine, we all have the ability to buy the coins that meet our standards while rejecting others. >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed. But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
It's the DIY reholdering that gets a little tricky. >>
I was obviously talking about a raw coin. If a slabbed coin has PVC contamination the slabbing service will fix it for free. >>
I hear the register ringing as all those "body bagged" coins are slabbed polluting the market. For $10 bucks I will tell you "no" via e-mail or PM and save you the shipping. Can PCGS lighten some dark copper I have? You always get more money for light brown copper than dark copper. PCGS is protected..... it doesn't guaranty copper color anymore....it's a win..win!
I don't see this strengthening the PCGS brand. What is happening to my beloved PCGS?
Si vis pacem, para bellum
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
stopping the coin doctors is like stopping the wind. as long as there is incentive to "enhance" coins, it will happen. profit margin is plenty of incentive to continue the practice. seems that it would make much more sense to educate the collecting community of what is an original coin and what is AT'd, cleaned etc. there is no difinitive definition of what constitutes coin doctoring. applying a substance to the surface of a coin to lighten, darken, or in any other way theoretically enhancing the value of the coin amounts to doctoring. rather than spending a pile of money to stop what cant conceivably be stopped, why not cotinue the practice of identifying coins for what they are ? lately ive seen coins in PCGS holders that list a details grade and any problem the coin has. what is wrong with this practice ? it tells a potential buyer all he/she needs to know to make an educated decision of buying the coin or passing. the biggest problem with spending a bunch of money fighting a fight that you cant win, is that the cost of fighting the cause has to be passed on to the customer (and your customers sooner or later realize that) the majority of people in the collecting community are hard working people, and may prefer to see thier hard earned money being treated with a bit more respect.
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>This PCGS 65RD does not deserve its grade, IMO. What could the restoration service do for it? HRH says it deserves its grade.
I agree with your assertion that sometimes a fingerprint can cause a 2-3 point drop. So why does PCGS feel this is a legitimate 65RD? Lance.
>>
Lance - From what I've seen over the years, the TPGs don't ding a coin for fingerprints, while I refuse to buy one. I've often seen MS 65 Barber and Seated Coinage with fingerprints of varying severity. A few years ago, TDN bought a Bust $ in a PCGS MS 66 holder which had a huge fingerprint, displayed it on this forum and we had a heated, though civilized discussion about it. He liked the coin and thought it was properly graded, while I stated that I thought the coin was unattractive and would not want the coin in my collection.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I hear the register ringing as all those "body bagged" coins are slabbed polluting the market. For $10 bucks I will tell you "no" via e-mail or PM and save you the shipping. Can PCGS lighten some dark copper I have? You always get more money for light brown copper than dark copper. PCGS is protected..... it doesn't guaranty copper color anymore....it's a win..win!
I don't see this strengthening the PCGS brand. What is happening to my beloved PCGS? >>
PCGS is a corporate entity that has to keep reinventing itself to continue to generate revenue. Once a coin is in a PCGS holder there is little short of a possible upgrade shot or damaged holder to incentivize the owner to spend any more money with the TPG on that piece...thus we have the periodic new generation holders, secure plus, sniffer, etc... and now this, which enables the TPG to generate revenue once again on already-slabbed coins as well as raw coins, plus coins from other services.
Speaking of revenue... no offense to our hosts is intended here, but this 4% charge seems a bit of an incentive to upgrade the "restored" coin- as a higher value means a higher fee...not to mention the "gradeflation" implications. Someone on another board equated it with having a plumber who decides how much it costs to unclog a toilet based on the value of the house.
DonWillis: <<We will not dip a naturally toned coin just to make it white.>>
I was delighted to read this statement. I hope Don will allow it to be quoted in other settings.
DonWillis: <<We see coins with problems everyday. For example a really nice gem with fingerprints. Today it ends up in a holder 2-3 points below what it would without the finger prints>>
This statement is a cause for concern. Efforts to remove fingerprints may be harmful. At the very least, the areas where fingerprints used to be may look odd. Would experts at the PCGS be willing to publicly explain just how fingerprints will be removed? Will coppery areas on gold coins be removed too?
DonWillis:<<There are too many coins in holders who have had their surfaces stripped. That's a trap we are not going to fall in. >>
I very much like this point. Indeed, it is truly re-assuring.
DonWillis: <<Coins with PVC. Coins that have been stained or ugly toning because they were not properly stored. Coins with verdigris or spots. Coins that someone has applied a foreign substance to. The list of legitimate candidates for restoration is long.>>
A. Yes, most of us agree that PVC should be removed. Should there be a need to pay a fee for the removal of PVC?
B. Coins that are properly stored may also appear as though they are <stained> or have toning that some may call <ugly> (and others like). Does it really make sense to remove toning that a submitter does not like? Sometimes, submitters are clueless and are looking to experts at the PCGS for direction.
C. Verdigris and spots amount to two different concepts. Spots are often parts of natural toning. Verdigris is really harmful and 'restoration' should then be considered.
D. <<Coins that someone has applied a foreign substance to.>> Yes, I hope that almost all of us are in agreement that substances applied by coin doctors should be removed. As Stone may have implied in an earlier post to this thread, acetone is usually sufficient for this purpose and a 'restoration' or 'conservation' program is not usually needed for this purpose. If Don is talking about added foreign substances that are not removable with acetone, a further explanation would be helpful.
Yes. Please go ahead and publicly state in detail exactly how you plan to remove prints on silver, gold, platinum, copper, aluminum and even steel coinage. Then I can work on the coins in my basement and not have to use your service.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
<< <i>So, before they genuine a coin will they notify me that it should go into the conservation department? >>
No. And most genuines couldn't be rescued anyway.
Lance.
Free Trial
Eric
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Experts at the PCGS have been dipping and stripping, without fanfare, for years. On CCE, one PCGS grader has repeatedly advertised dipping services, especially for Walkers and Morgans.
Stewart Blay<<What is not said in the PCGS promotion of their new restoration service is what they will do when a coin is RUINED. And if you speak to any knowledgeable numismatist including David Hall, there is a chance your coin sent in for restoration can be ruined.>>
Well said, there is no doubt about it. Presumably, the financial value of already PCGS certified coins is guaranteed. Even so, if a coin with decades of natural toning is dipped, much of the history and personality of the coin is destroyed. Knowledgeable people who would like to own the coin in the future are being harmed. Indeed, when a really rare coin is dipped, many people in the coin collecting community may be harmed. Such coins are important to people in addition to those who own them.
While there are unusual cases where the benefits of a dipping outweigh the harm done, Stewart is saying that starting such a public services sends the wrong message and will lead to much harm being done. I am concerned that he may correct, though I have a more open mind regarding this topic. It is best not to prejudge this service.
Mike1: <<There should absolutely be a code on the slab that indicates the coin has had this service done to it. >>
I agree, though I doubt that such a policy will be implemented.
StewartBlay: <<. Anyway just about everything I post goes poof anyway.>>
Stewart’s insights continue to live in my articles:
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Eric
<< <i>What happens if PCGS "restores" a coin that has already been slabbed by PCGS and it results in an a "no grade" coin? >>
PCGS has said their guarantee protects. But you might not like the buy back price.
Lance.
<< <i>will a once non-gradable coin become gradable now?
Eric >>
Depends on the problem. Cleaning, tooling, corrosion, etc...not a chance. Questionable color? Possibly.
Lance.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I like the reverse side just fine. I keep thinking that this was an end roll coin.
I would have no objection seeing this coin downgraded to a AU-FB or MS-60FB at PCGS.
Thoughts?
Wondercoin
<< <i>I like it just the way it is!
Wondercoin >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed.
But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>I like it just the way it is!
Wondercoin >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed.
But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I like it just the way it is!
Wondercoin >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed.
But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
I should have clarified that I meant in the sense of almost all substances outside of acetone
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I like it just the way it is!
Wondercoin >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed.
But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
It's the DIY reholdering that gets a little tricky.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I like it just the way it is!
Wondercoin >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed.
But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
It's the DIY reholdering that gets a little tricky.
I was obviously talking about a raw coin. If a slabbed coin has PVC contamination the slabbing service will fix it for free.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No the 1945 Merc 10c in this thread is not a candidate for restoration. We will not dip a naturally toned coin just to make it white.
A lot of coins have been ruined over the past few years by overly aggressive practices. There are too many coins in holders who have had their surfaces stripped. That's a trap we are not going to fall in.
We see coins with problems everyday. For example a really nice gem with fingerprints. Today it ends up in a holder 2-3 points below what it would without the finger prints. Coins with PVC. Coins that have been stained or ugly toning because they were not properly stored. Coins with verdigris or spots. Coins that someone has applied a foreign substance to. The list of legitimate candidates for restoration is long.
PCGS has always been the leader when it comes to protecting the collector. We are the only company to publicly call out the coin doctors. We've invested millions in technology designed to stop the doctoring. Some purists might say that a coin should never be helped no matter what happens. We think there is a happy medium. Our priority will always be to maintain a coin's originality and preserve its beauty.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I guess I'm not up in arms about this at all, neither am I giddy about the announcement. This is the business of PCGS and the owner of a coin and, as far as I can determine, we all have the ability to buy the coins that meet our standards while rejecting others. >>
Well said.
<< <i>I guess I'm not up in arms about this at all, neither am I giddy about the announcement. This is the business of PCGS and the owner of a coin and, as far as I can determine, we all have the ability to buy the coins that meet our standards while rejecting others. >>
Yes, well said Tom.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I like it just the way it is!
Wondercoin >>
I like all coins just the way they are...with the exception of PVC...I'm perfectly fine having that removed.
But honestly, most coins should just be left alone. This service isn't restoration, it's coin doctoring to me. >>
I would think the average collector could remove PVC with a acetone rinse without too much trouble. >>
It's the DIY reholdering that gets a little tricky.
I was obviously talking about a raw coin. If a slabbed coin has PVC contamination the slabbing service will fix it for free. >>
I know, hence the winky.
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
Un-doctoring?
Eric
I agree with your assertion that sometimes a fingerprint can cause a 2-3 point drop. So why does PCGS feel this is a legitimate 65RD?
Lance.
<< <i>Well said Mr. Willis!! >>
You always say that!
I don't see this strengthening the PCGS brand. What is happening to my beloved PCGS?
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>This PCGS 65RD does not deserve its grade, IMO. What could the restoration service do for it? HRH says it deserves its grade.
I agree with your assertion that sometimes a fingerprint can cause a 2-3 point drop. So why does PCGS feel this is a legitimate 65RD?
Lance.
Lance - From what I've seen over the years, the TPGs don't ding a coin for fingerprints, while I refuse to buy one. I've often seen MS 65 Barber and Seated Coinage with fingerprints of varying severity. A few years ago, TDN bought a Bust $ in a PCGS MS 66 holder which had a huge fingerprint, displayed it on this forum and we had a heated, though civilized discussion about it. He liked the coin and thought it was properly graded, while I stated that I thought the coin was unattractive and would not want the coin in my collection.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I hear the register ringing as all those "body bagged" coins are slabbed polluting the market. For $10 bucks I will tell you "no" via e-mail or PM and save you the shipping.
I don't see this strengthening the PCGS brand. What is happening to my beloved PCGS? >>
PCGS is a corporate entity that has to keep reinventing itself to continue to generate revenue. Once a coin is in a PCGS holder there is little short of a possible upgrade shot or damaged holder to incentivize the owner to spend any more money with the TPG on that piece...thus we have the periodic new generation holders, secure plus, sniffer, etc... and now this, which enables the TPG to generate revenue once again on already-slabbed coins as well as raw coins, plus coins from other services.
Speaking of revenue... no offense to our hosts is intended here, but this 4% charge seems a bit of an incentive to upgrade the "restored" coin- as a higher value means a higher fee...not to mention the "gradeflation" implications. Someone on another board equated it with having a plumber who decides how much it costs to unclog a toilet based on the value of the house.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
DonWillis: <<We will not dip a naturally toned coin just to make it white.>>
I was delighted to read this statement. I hope Don will allow it to be quoted in other settings.
DonWillis: <<We see coins with problems everyday. For example a really nice gem with fingerprints. Today it ends up in a holder 2-3 points below what it would without the finger prints>>
This statement is a cause for concern. Efforts to remove fingerprints may be harmful. At the very least, the areas where fingerprints used to be may look odd. Would experts at the PCGS be willing to publicly explain just how fingerprints will be removed? Will coppery areas on gold coins be removed too?
DonWillis:<<There are too many coins in holders who have had their surfaces stripped. That's a trap we are not going to fall in. >>
I very much like this point. Indeed, it is truly re-assuring.
DonWillis: <<Coins with PVC. Coins that have been stained or ugly toning because they were not properly stored. Coins with verdigris or spots. Coins that someone has applied a foreign substance to. The list of legitimate candidates for restoration is long.>>
A. Yes, most of us agree that PVC should be removed. Should there be a need to pay a fee for the removal of PVC?
B. Coins that are properly stored may also appear as though they are <stained> or have toning that some may call <ugly> (and others like). Does it really make sense to remove toning that a submitter does not like? Sometimes, submitters are clueless and are looking to experts at the PCGS for direction.
C. Verdigris and spots amount to two different concepts. Spots are often parts of natural toning. Verdigris is really harmful and 'restoration' should then be considered.
D. <<Coins that someone has applied a foreign substance to.>> Yes, I hope that almost all of us are in agreement that substances applied by coin doctors should be removed. As Stone may have implied in an earlier post to this thread, acetone is usually sufficient for this purpose and a 'restoration' or 'conservation' program is not usually needed for this purpose. If Don is talking about added foreign substances that are not removable with acetone, a further explanation would be helpful.
The Formal Introduction of the PCGS Coin Sniffer at the PCGS Luncheon
Defining Coin Doctoring and Dipping, Additions to the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors, 09/08/10
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3