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My Numismatic Hero - John J. Ford
MidLifeCrisis
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John J. Ford’s collection contained over 11,000 coins, tokens, medals and other numismatic items covering all aspects of American numismatics - except regularly issued federal US coinage. This massive collection was sold by Stack’s in a series of 21 auctions for over $56 million.
I never met him. I have heard stories that he was not a nice man...a ruthless dealer. Some even say he was a crook.
I don't care.
I appreciate anybody who can stay so contrarian; who can ignore conventional wisdom and popular trends; and who can build such a special and, indeed, valuable collection without including even one of the so called "key date" federal coins.
I never met him. I have heard stories that he was not a nice man...a ruthless dealer. Some even say he was a crook.
I don't care.
I appreciate anybody who can stay so contrarian; who can ignore conventional wisdom and popular trends; and who can build such a special and, indeed, valuable collection without including even one of the so called "key date" federal coins.
1
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Unfortunately, his probable ties to the fake territorial ingots and coins will cloud his legacy for a long time.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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<< <i>He was brilliant; a great and enthusiastic numismatist, but shared very little information with others.
Unfortunately, his probable ties to the fake territorial ingots and coins will cloud his legacy for a long time. >>
I am interested in seeing what Karl Moulton has uncovered in this regard---his forthcoming book on Ford and the Franklin Hoard should be a good read.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I am interested in seeing what Karl Moulton has uncovered in this regard---his forthcoming book on Ford and the Franklin Hoard should be a good read. >>
How many years now has that book been forthcoming? And how many times has Karl come here and said "It's being proofread now" or other talk of imminence.
For me, at least, the excitement of reading this has long passed.
<< <i>Text The strange thing I remember about john ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City. He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids. I never forgot >>
I was a teenager then. I do not believe I disliked anyone in Numismatics as much as Ford.
I do have one "ex Ford" piece, a Hard Times token. I paid a big premium over what this piece brought at the Ford sale, but I don't regret it for a minute. This very scarce Van Buren Hard Times token is at least 30 grading points higher than any other example of this piece that I have seen. The variety is HT-76, Low 57, and it is rated as an R-6 (13 to 30 known) with most of the survivors in the low grades.
As for the hole, I would be concerned if it didn't have one. All of the examples I've seen were holed, and one without it might be a copy. This was a political piece that was met to be worn. For whatever reason Lyman Low included in his Hard Times token book. There are other HTT that are always holed, like HT-75.
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<< <i>Doesn't matter to me how outstanding a collection put together by anyone is -- and this particularly applies to John J. Ford -- if they're a colossal ass, that's what they'll be most remembered for. >>
History is a funny thing. Most of the bourse floor gossip never gets recorded, and dies with the people who said or heard it. We can look at a nineteenth-century auction catalog and find out who owned what, but we are left with few impressions of the personalities of the players. I suppose the Internet will change that somewhat. But a hundred years from now, what's a more credible source - the meticulous auction record of his collection by a longstanding firm, or some offhand comments in a chat room?
Edited to add, Karl's book will be better for the wait. As new information continues to come in, it is hard to cut it off and nail down a publication date.
<< <i>I posted this here in 2005:
<< <i>Text The strange thing I remember about john ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City. He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids. I never forgot >>
I was a teenager then. I do not believe I disliked anyone in Numismatics as much as Ford. >>
You are not alone.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>
<< <i>I posted this here in 2005:
<< <i>Text The strange thing I remember about john ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City. He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids. I never forgot >>
I was a teenager then. I do not believe I disliked anyone in Numismatics as much as Ford. >>
You are not alone.
K >>
I think that he was connected with New Netherlands Coin Company. I looked the place up once when I was in my 20s. The reception was decidedly chilly. They did not have much time for young collectors whom they perceived had very little money.
I met them later at a New York show. They asked me what I was looking for in coins. I told them that I wanted to buy some early U.S. coins in AU that still had some mint luster on them. They told me I was unrealistic in my goals (but not in those polite words) and then quoted me a price that was about twice what a given item was worth at the time. Needless to say, I never was one of their customers.
I grew up in California so I never met Mr. Ford.
We did have a coin expert out here named Walter Breen.
He liked kids.
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One thing I noticed is that a lot of his collection was made up from peices he aquired from the FCC Boyd estate.
As far as him not sharing information - I believe he got that bad rep AFTER he died once people realized exactly what was in his collection.
A quick Google of John J Ford will tell you all you need to know about what people thought of Ford as a person.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>My only memory of John J. Ford was that (at a long-ago ANA convention) I overheard him saying unkind things about Abe Kosoff (in rather coarse language, if memory serves), which put me off. >>
Coarse language is one thing that John was known for. He also did not have any regard for Abe Kosoff's numismatic knowledge. In John's mind, no one knew as much as he did.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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<< <i>There are plenty of other people through the years - pre-dating Ford - who collected things other than Federal coins, who assembled them piece by piece, on their own, and about whom I have never heard a negative word. >>
+1
If they overlap you are a fortunate person.
<< <i>He was brilliant; a great and enthusiastic numismatist, but shared very little information with others.
Unfortunately, his probable ties to the fake territorial ingots and coins will cloud his legacy for a long time. >>
I remain unconvinced as to whether he knowingly participated in the manufacture of the fake territorial ingots, coins and other items, or whether he was the dupe who distributed them and, having been taken in by them, defended them to the death out of hubris that could not allow himself to admit that he might have been wrong.
I was working at Amos Press when Ted Buttrey published his devastating condemnation of the "HISP ET ID" bars in a learned Mexican publication, and then offered reprint rights to the article to Coin World. Ford threatened to sue Coin World if it reprinted the article, and it declined.
I also saw a letter that Ford wrote to the then-Editor of Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine regarding the questionable territorial items that were removed from the Redbook in the mid-1960's. Ford stated that the items were removed due to lack of space, a claim which the Editor of the Redbook has assured me is false.
I do wish that the large number (approximately 700 ounces worth total, as I was told by a reliable source with connections to the refiner) of questionable "Western ingots" in Ford's possession at the time of his death had not been quietly melted to make them go away, but had instead been scientifically tested to determine the likely origins of their contents, but that cannot happen now.
It is ancient history now. Let it lie.
TD
Oh yah - that works so well for coin collectors
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And yes, I'm trained and was licensed to make that diagnosis. If you weren't putting money in his pocket or maintaining/defending/burnishing his image, public or self, you didn't exist except to be ignored or disparaged.
Interesting that he and Breen were both at New Netherlands at the same time. idiot-sauvage and idiot-savant.
I met Ford but a few times and was repulsed. I spent more time with Walter in the late 80's and on some level decided to stay in denial (minimalization) about his predispositions and rumored actions (my failure). I was not alone. but can't excuse it on that level. Breen was a sweet dangerous unknowing infant; JJF a vicious but more (not socially but) societally-skilled sociopath.
Indeed. Ford loved to tell a story about what happened when Mrs. Norweb walzed into NN, wearing an expensive fur coat. And when she left, the backside of her coat was smeared with one of WB's candy bars (carelessly left in the chair that she later sat in).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Yes, it's been a long time in the making. It's frustrating for the author, too.
The book has now progressed to a little over 900 pages.
It will be a numismatic history lesson that few could imagine. It will outline Ford's activity in American numismatics, plus a whole lot more.
Highlights have been brought up in other threads, so they won't be mentioned here.
The book is finished, except for a final go through, and is expected to go to the printer before the end of the year.
Watch for announcements on when and how to order a copy.
Thanks!
Karl
<< <i>I remain unconvinced as to whether he knowingly participated in the manufacture of the fake territorial ingots, coins and other items, or whether he was the dupe who distributed them and, having been taken in by them, defended them to the death out of hubris that could not allow himself to admit that he might have been wrong.
>>
The way I heard it described - "Ford would rather have been thought a crook than a fool."
<< <i>
<< <i>I remain unconvinced as to whether he knowingly participated in the manufacture of the fake territorial ingots, coins and other items, or whether he was the dupe who distributed them and, having been taken in by them, defended them to the death out of hubris that could not allow himself to admit that he might have been wrong.
>>
The way I heard it described - "Ford would rather have been thought a crook than a fool." >>
Sometimes being a crook leads to you becoming a fool as well. I've seen many crooked dealers turn off so many customers that their business went down the tubes. It's funny how honest people stay in this business for years while some of the bad actors are gone in a puff of smoke. Of course there are few shady guys who seem to survive inspite of themselves.
<< <i>There are plenty of other people through the years - pre-dating Ford - who collected things other than Federal coins, who assembled them piece by piece, on their own, and about whom I have never heard a negative word. >>
Rather than ripping the FCC Boyd coins and keeping them.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set