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My Numismatic Hero - John J. Ford

MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
John J. Ford’s collection contained over 11,000 coins, tokens, medals and other numismatic items covering all aspects of American numismatics - except regularly issued federal US coinage. This massive collection was sold by Stack’s in a series of 21 auctions for over $56 million.

I never met him. I have heard stories that he was not a nice man...a ruthless dealer. Some even say he was a crook.

I don't care.

I appreciate anybody who can stay so contrarian; who can ignore conventional wisdom and popular trends; and who can build such a special and, indeed, valuable collection without including even one of the so called "key date" federal coins.

Comments

  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    He was brilliant; a great and enthusiastic numismatist, but shared very little information with others.

    Unfortunately, his probable ties to the fake territorial ingots and coins will cloud his legacy for a long time.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>He was brilliant; a great and enthusiastic numismatist, but shared very little information with others.

    Unfortunately, his probable ties to the fake territorial ingots and coins will cloud his legacy for a long time. >>



    image
    I am interested in seeing what Karl Moulton has uncovered in this regard---his forthcoming book on Ford and the Franklin Hoard should be a good read.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,197 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eh. I never cared for what he collected. Eric Newman on the other hand....
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭
    Seems to me, if you purposely "ignore conventional wisdom and popular trends" by avoiding certain coins, you are allowing others to determine for you what coins are fit for your collection.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's quite a statement............
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,628 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I am interested in seeing what Karl Moulton has uncovered in this regard---his forthcoming book on Ford and the Franklin Hoard should be a good read. >>

    How many years now has that book been forthcoming? And how many times has Karl come here and said "It's being proofread now" or other talk of imminence.

    For me, at least, the excitement of reading this has long passed.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,132 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I posted this here in 2005:



    << <i>Text The strange thing I remember about john ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City. He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids. I never forgot >>



    I was a teenager then. I do not believe I disliked anyone in Numismatics as much as Ford.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was a bit too young and did not have enough money at the time to have had any dealings with John Ford. I did know a number of collectors who were his contemporaries, and they said that you really had to watch your step around him because he would take advantage of you if he could. As for what he collected I admire it very much. I have a fair amount of the same sort of material although far, far fewer pieces than what he had.

    I do have one "ex Ford" piece, a Hard Times token. I paid a big premium over what this piece brought at the Ford sale, but I don't regret it for a minute. This very scarce Van Buren Hard Times token is at least 30 grading points higher than any other example of this piece that I have seen. The variety is HT-76, Low 57, and it is rated as an R-6 (13 to 30 known) with most of the survivors in the low grades.

    imageimage
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think that the piece is worth $5 to $6 thousand. Rulau does not provide a price beyond the EF grade, he marks it at $3,500 at that level. Sometimes Rulau's prices are low for the rare and famous HTTs.

    As for the hole, I would be concerned if it didn't have one. All of the examples I've seen were holed, and one without it might be a copy. This was a political piece that was met to be worn. For whatever reason Lyman Low included in his Hard Times token book. There are other HTT that are always holed, like HT-75.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • My only memory of John J. Ford was that (at a long-ago ANA convention) I overheard him saying unkind things about Abe Kosoff (in rather coarse language, if memory serves), which put me off.
    "Clamorous for Coin"
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I admire the epic job Stack's did in cataloging the collection.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭✭
    There are plenty of other people through the years - pre-dating Ford - who collected things other than Federal coins, who assembled them piece by piece, on their own, and about whom I have never heard a negative word.
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    Doesn't matter to me how outstanding a collection put together by anyone is -- and this particularly applies to John J. Ford -- if they're a colossal ass, that's what they'll be most remembered for.
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,643 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Doesn't matter to me how outstanding a collection put together by anyone is -- and this particularly applies to John J. Ford -- if they're a colossal ass, that's what they'll be most remembered for. >>



    History is a funny thing. Most of the bourse floor gossip never gets recorded, and dies with the people who said or heard it. We can look at a nineteenth-century auction catalog and find out who owned what, but we are left with few impressions of the personalities of the players. I suppose the Internet will change that somewhat. But a hundred years from now, what's a more credible source - the meticulous auction record of his collection by a longstanding firm, or some offhand comments in a chat room?

    Edited to add, Karl's book will be better for the wait. As new information continues to come in, it is hard to cut it off and nail down a publication date.
  • NicNic Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I posted this here in 2005:



    << <i>Text The strange thing I remember about john ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City. He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids. I never forgot >>



    I was a teenager then. I do not believe I disliked anyone in Numismatics as much as Ford. >>



    You are not alone.

    K
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,731 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I posted this here in 2005:



    << <i>Text The strange thing I remember about john ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City. He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids. I never forgot >>



    I was a teenager then. I do not believe I disliked anyone in Numismatics as much as Ford. >>



    You are not alone.

    K >>



    I think that he was connected with New Netherlands Coin Company. I looked the place up once when I was in my 20s. The reception was decidedly chilly. They did not have much time for young collectors whom they perceived had very little money.

    I met them later at a New York show. They asked me what I was looking for in coins. I told them that I wanted to buy some early U.S. coins in AU that still had some mint luster on them. They told me I was unrealistic in my goals (but not in those polite words) and then quoted me a price that was about twice what a given item was worth at the time. Needless to say, I never was one of their customers.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,261 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He had no use for kids. I never forgot

    I grew up in California so I never met Mr. Ford.

    We did have a coin expert out here named Walter Breen.

    He liked kids.

    image
    https://www.brianrxm.com
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  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    Yep... yet another, (very) dark side of the coin -- absolutely no use for either party, or even the memory of them.
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ford ended up owning Hillyer Ryder's collection of Vermont Coppers and the color plate spread in the catalog is pure colonial coin porn. One thing about Fords collection it didn't include an 1864 Feuchtwanger Three Cent Piece (but mine does)image
  • dtkk49adtkk49a Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    I recommend aquiring the entire the 21 volume Ford auction catalog set from Stacks. What a great set of catalogs (some are not cheap to buy now).

    One thing I noticed is that a lot of his collection was made up from peices he aquired from the FCC Boyd estate.

    As far as him not sharing information - I believe he got that bad rep AFTER he died once people realized exactly what was in his collection.

    A quick Google of John J Ford will tell you all you need to know about what people thought of Ford as a person.

    Follow me - Cards_and_Coins on Instagram



    They call me "Pack the Ripper"
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know anything about him as a human being, but his collection had some really cool things. There were items I've never heard of and I've been collecting for nearly 40 years.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭


    << <i>My only memory of John J. Ford was that (at a long-ago ANA convention) I overheard him saying unkind things about Abe Kosoff (in rather coarse language, if memory serves), which put me off. >>



    Coarse language is one thing that John was known for. He also did not have any regard for Abe Kosoff's numismatic knowledge. In John's mind, no one knew as much as he did.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore


  • << <i>There are plenty of other people through the years - pre-dating Ford - who collected things other than Federal coins, who assembled them piece by piece, on their own, and about whom I have never heard a negative word. >>



    +1
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭
    You select your friends by one standard; your heroes by a second and your provanceors by a third.
    If they overlap you are a fortunate person.
    Trime
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,668 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>He was brilliant; a great and enthusiastic numismatist, but shared very little information with others.

    Unfortunately, his probable ties to the fake territorial ingots and coins will cloud his legacy for a long time. >>



    I remain unconvinced as to whether he knowingly participated in the manufacture of the fake territorial ingots, coins and other items, or whether he was the dupe who distributed them and, having been taken in by them, defended them to the death out of hubris that could not allow himself to admit that he might have been wrong.

    I was working at Amos Press when Ted Buttrey published his devastating condemnation of the "HISP ET ID" bars in a learned Mexican publication, and then offered reprint rights to the article to Coin World. Ford threatened to sue Coin World if it reprinted the article, and it declined.

    I also saw a letter that Ford wrote to the then-Editor of Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine regarding the questionable territorial items that were removed from the Redbook in the mid-1960's. Ford stated that the items were removed due to lack of space, a claim which the Editor of the Redbook has assured me is false.

    I do wish that the large number (approximately 700 ounces worth total, as I was told by a reliable source with connections to the refiner) of questionable "Western ingots" in Ford's possession at the time of his death had not been quietly melted to make them go away, but had instead been scientifically tested to determine the likely origins of their contents, but that cannot happen now.

    It is ancient history now. Let it lie.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,197 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is ancient history now. Let it lie.

    Oh yah - that works so well for coin collectors
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JJF - Nice coins but....

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And yes, I'm trained and was licensed to make that diagnosis. If you weren't putting money in his pocket or maintaining/defending/burnishing his image, public or self, you didn't exist except to be ignored or disparaged.

    Interesting that he and Breen were both at New Netherlands at the same time. idiot-sauvage and idiot-savant.

    I met Ford but a few times and was repulsed. I spent more time with Walter in the late 80's and on some level decided to stay in denial (minimalization) about his predispositions and rumored actions (my failure). I was not alone. but can't excuse it on that level. Breen was a sweet dangerous unknowing infant; JJF a vicious but more (not socially but) societally-skilled sociopath.image
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Interesting that he and Breen were both at New Netherlands at the same time. idiot-sauvage and idiot-savant."

    Indeed. Ford loved to tell a story about what happened when Mrs. Norweb walzed into NN, wearing an expensive fur coat. And when she left, the backside of her coat was smeared with one of WB's candy bars (carelessly left in the chair that she later sat in).
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • Here's an update on the "John J. Ford, Jr. and the Franklin Hoard" book.

    Yes, it's been a long time in the making. It's frustrating for the author, too.

    The book has now progressed to a little over 900 pages.

    It will be a numismatic history lesson that few could imagine. It will outline Ford's activity in American numismatics, plus a whole lot more.

    Highlights have been brought up in other threads, so they won't be mentioned here.

    The book is finished, except for a final go through, and is expected to go to the printer before the end of the year.

    Watch for announcements on when and how to order a copy.

    Thanks!

    Karl

    PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sometimes referred to as John J. Fraudimage
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,643 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I remain unconvinced as to whether he knowingly participated in the manufacture of the fake territorial ingots, coins and other items, or whether he was the dupe who distributed them and, having been taken in by them, defended them to the death out of hubris that could not allow himself to admit that he might have been wrong.
    >>



    The way I heard it described - "Ford would rather have been thought a crook than a fool."
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,731 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I remain unconvinced as to whether he knowingly participated in the manufacture of the fake territorial ingots, coins and other items, or whether he was the dupe who distributed them and, having been taken in by them, defended them to the death out of hubris that could not allow himself to admit that he might have been wrong.
    >>



    The way I heard it described - "Ford would rather have been thought a crook than a fool." >>



    Sometimes being a crook leads to you becoming a fool as well. I've seen many crooked dealers turn off so many customers that their business went down the tubes. It's funny how honest people stay in this business for years while some of the bad actors are gone in a puff of smoke. Of course there are few shady guys who seem to survive inspite of themselves.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • NicNic Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>There are plenty of other people through the years - pre-dating Ford - who collected things other than Federal coins, who assembled them piece by piece, on their own, and about whom I have never heard a negative word. >>



    Rather than ripping the FCC Boyd coins and keeping them.

    K

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