Gold Experts- question regarding position of mintmarks.

DoubleEagle59

I was searching gold coins and noticed two completely different positions of the 'S' mintmark on an 1856-s $2.50 US gold piece.

The first picture below is from Ebay and is a PCGS ms64 graded 1856-s gold piece.

The second picture is the same coin, but the three examples of the 1856-s $2.50 gold coin on the PCGS coin facts webpage has the mintmark located where the black 'S' is drawn (as I couldn't copy the picture from the website).

I would like to know if this is common or should it be cause for concern (counterfeit perhaps?).

RYK

I cannot specifically address the 1856-S QE, but, in general, there is a fair amount of variation in the position of mintmarks across the various branch mint gold coin series.

LoveMyLiberty

CoinFacts shows examples of both "S" mint mark positions.

roadrunner

<< <i>CoinFacts shows examples of both "S" mint mark positions. >>



A quick glimpse through the Heritage archives shows them both ways. But the right oriented position seems more common. I wasn't aware that 19th century
mm positions could very that much. Not aware of anything like that on seated 25c/50c/1$. You do have the above and below the bow mint marks (ie seated dimes/half dimes).
For an eagle on the reverse they are always under that same nook. Interesting observation.

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>CoinFacts shows examples of both "S" mint mark positions. >>



A quick glimpse through the Heritage archives shows them both ways. But the right oriented position seems more common. I wasn't aware that 19th century
mm positions could very that much. Not aware of anything like that on seated 25c/50c/1$. You do have the above and below the bow mint marks (ie seated dimes/half dimes).
For an eagle on the reverse they are always under that same nook. Interesting observation. >>


Doug Winter describes a lot of these MM variations in his books on C, D, O, and CC gold. They generally carry no premium but are a curiosity.

LoveMyLiberty

<< <i>

<< <i>CoinFacts shows examples of both "S" mint mark positions. >>



A quick glimpse through the Heritage archives shows them both ways. But the right oriented position seems more common. I wasn't aware that 19th century
mm positions could very that much. Not aware of anything like that on seated 25c/50c/1$. You do have the above and below the bow mint marks (ie seated dimes/half dimes).
For an eagle on the reverse they are always under that same nook. Interesting observation. >>




Wiley & Bugert address the issue of mintmark sizes & positions in chapter 2 of their book, Seated Liberty
Half Dollars. For just the "S" m/m alone they identified at least 9 sizes and state that the positioning
variances were mainly due to human design and/or error and it was common for branch mints to produce coinage in
any given year with multiple size mintmarks. This probably explains the positioning on these quarter eagles.
These factors were also affected by what m/m punches were available at the time. If one broke they would
use another of a different size for expediency.

DaveG

The mintmark position variation you show also occurs on some of the S-mint eagles of the mid-1850's; I don't know if it also occurs on the half eagles.

roadrunner

Wiley & Bugert address the issue of mintmark sizes & positions in chapter 2 of their book, Seated Liberty
Half Dollars. For just the "S" m/m alone they identified at least 9 sizes and state that the positioning
variances were mainly due to human design and/or error and it was common for branch mints to produce coinage in
any given year with multiple size mintmarks. This probably explains the positioning on these quarter eagles.
These factors were also affected by what m/m punches were available at the time. If one broke they would
use another of a different size for expediency.

Those S m/m variations tend to be slightly left or right, higher or lower. But shifting the mintmark completely around the next
device is certainly not the norm. In seated halves for example the m/m's are located between the stem of the wreath and the
end of the arrow feathers. You don't see an S mint mark moved over to, or around the eagle's right claw. Yet that's what was done
with this 56-S $2-1/2. It looks most strange, especially with such a large m/m for such a small coin.

DoubleEagle59

<< <i>Wiley & Bugert address the issue of mintmark sizes & positions in chapter 2 of their book, Seated Liberty
Half Dollars. For just the "S" m/m alone they identified at least 9 sizes and state that the positioning
variances were mainly due to human design and/or error and it was common for branch mints to produce coinage in
any given year with multiple size mintmarks. This probably explains the positioning on these quarter eagles.
These factors were also affected by what m/m punches were available at the time. If one broke they would
use another of a different size for expediency.

Those S m/m variations tend to be slightly left or right, higher or lower. But shifting the mintmark completely around the next
device is certainly not the norm. In seated halves for example the m/m's are located between the stem of the wreath and the
end of the arrow feathers. You don't see an S mint mark moved over to, or around the eagle's right claw. Yet that's what was done
with this 56-S $2-1/2. It looks most strange, especially with such a large m/m for such a small coin. >>



Exactly the reason for my concern.

BillJones

Mint marks were hand punched during this period and for many years after that. Just look a mint mark locations of Lincoln cents if you don't believe me. The mint marks for Charlotte and Dahlonega coins are often at odd angles and unusual spots. I don't think that you can use mint mark positioning as the sole criterion for spotting counterfeits.

PerryHall

The size of the mintmark can also vary on a specific issue. As an example, the 1856-S $3 gold coin comes with a small, medium, and large S mintmark.

LoveMyLiberty

It seems your concern is whether the "S" is on the left of the fletch (arrow feather ends)
or positioned on the right side of the fletch.

In CoinFacts there are examples of both positionings for the S m/m during this time.
In 1856 CoinFacts shows three S m/m to the right, 2 to the left.
In 1857 CoinFacts shows four S m/m examples all to the left.
" 1859 " " three S m/m " " " " left.
" 1860 " " five " " " " " left.
" 1861 " " five " " " " " right.
" 1862 " " six " " " " " right .
" 1863 " " six " " " " " right.
In 1865 CoinFacts " five " " " " " right.
" 1866 six right.
1867 five right.
1868 three right.
1873 three left.

The "D" m/m are sometimes in the crotch & sometimes not.

It's like havin' an "INNEY" or an "OUTTY". It is what it is!