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1873 & 1874 trade dollars on ebay --POLL--real or fake?
rec78
Posts: 5,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
rec78
Posts: 5,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Both by the same seller
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>Both obvious fakes. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Both obvious fakes. >>
Bob
Fake.
Reported.
Reported.
Oh my!
bob
<< <i>Ok, most of us here know that they are fakes, but what about the average or new collector? I bet they still get bids and maybe some high bids unless enough of us report them and poof the auctions. These kind of fakes are enough to fool the uninformed. When I posted this I did not see the "got these from the grandparents thing" at the bottom of the auctions. My take is that the seller knows they are fake, because why would anyone start genuine trade dollars at $45? My aim is to shut auctions like these down.The 1873 already has two bids-It may be obvious to most of us-but there are a lot of uninformed bidders out there. LET'S POOF 'EM!!! >>
I agree that these might fool the average collector not specializing in trade dollars, but for this very reason there aren't many casual trade dollar collectors or trade dollar collectors who are new to the hobby. Unfortunately the preponderance of fakes has hurt the series, some collectors won't touch trade dollars for fear of purchasing a fake. It's really too bad and we all do what we can to poof these auctions. Love or hate eBay, they have done an OK job cleaning up many of the fakes that used to litter their auction site. A year ago you may not have made this post because they would have been one of many many fake trade dollars listed.
type2,CCHunter.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>bogus fakes >>
Bogus fake counterfeit replicas!
peacockcoins
I had been in various parts of Asia, and had seen numerous examples of fakes. Almost all of them were the 1875 S, and anyone who wasn't blind could tell they were fakes. This one was different. I had never seen a fake 1875 CC before, but I knew that it had to be a fake, since he was willing to give it to me for $32.
It actually looked legit. A number of years later, I brought it to Long Beach, and a number of dealers thought it was real. It certainly looked real; devices and denticles looked appropriate, he coin was the right weight, and the wear and contact marks were reasonable for an VF 35 or XF 40 of the series. Finally, one guy asked if it was okay to drop it on the concrete floor to listen to it 'ping,' to see if the metal content was correct or not. The 'ping' indicated that the metal content was off (not enough silver) and the coin was fake.
It was the best fake I've ever seen. Do yourself a favor. If you see a Trade $ and it's not in a first world TPG holder, assume it's fake. Otherwise, if you want to pi** away your money, you have been forewarned.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It's an even bet if the seller knows or not.
<< <i>For newbies here...
Do yourself a favor. If you see a Trade $ and it's not in a first world TPG holder, assume it's fake. Otherwise, if you want to pi** away your money, you have been forewarned. >>
Overall good advice, but again I hate to see the fakes discourage new collectors from checking out the series, it's a fascinating albeit short series with so much history involved.
FWIW, just last week I purchased a RAW 78-CC in VF off a smallish dealers website. The 78-CC is one of the most counterfeited dates in the series, so here are the steps I followed (besides the obvious "does it look right"):
1. Checked obverse/reverse type, since many 78-CC fakes are type 1 reverse which doesn't exist.
2. Checked mint mark location and compared against known MM locations. HA.com is great for this.
3. Just to set my mind at ease, checked the date location on a few HA.com coins with the matching MM location. Matching up both the MM and date location gives me a die marriage match.
4. When the coin arrived, I weighed it. 27.0 grams which is consistent with other known genuine VF TD's I've weighed.
You could argue that all of the above still don't prove it's real. Sure, and that's why I made sure the dealer was reputable enough such that if PCGS called it fake I could get my money back. My point here is that even for the most counterfeited (key dates) coins in the series, it's really not that hard to buy with confidence. Of course, buying third party graded coins is also sound advice and a little easier than what I'll go through with the above coin.
Edit:
Here's a picture of the 78-CC if anyone's interested. Try your own skill and see how long it takes you to match the MM/date locations to an HA.com coin. I have a much larger version of the obverse/reverse pic if anyone needs it.
<< <i>
<< <i>For newbies here...
Do yourself a favor. If you see a Trade $ and it's not in a first world TPG holder, assume it's fake. Otherwise, if you want to pi** away your money, you have been forewarned. >>
Overall good advice, but again I hate to see the fakes discourage new collectors from checking out the series, it's a fascinating albeit short series with so much history involved.
FWIW, just last week I purchased a RAW 78-CC in VF off a smallish dealers website. The 78-CC is one of the most counterfeited dates in the series, so here are the steps I followed (besides the obvious "does it look right"):
1. Checked obverse/reverse type, since many 78-CC fakes are type 1 reverse which doesn't exist.
2. Checked mint mark location and compared against known MM locations. HA.com is great for this.
3. Just to set my mind at ease, checked the date location on a few HA.com coins with the matching MM location. Matching up both the MM and date location gives me a die marriage match.
4. When the coin arrived, I weighed it. 27.0 grams which is consistent with other known genuine VF TD's I've weighed.
You could argue that all of the above still don't prove it's real. Sure, and that's why I made sure the dealer was reputable enough such that if PCGS called it fake I could get my money back. My point here is that even for the most counterfeited (key dates) coins in the series, it's really not that hard to buy with confidence. Of course, buying third party graded coins is also sound advice and a little easier than what I'll go through with the above coin.
Edit:
Here's a picture of the 78-CC if anyone's interested. Try your own skill and see how long it takes you to match the MM/date locations to an HA.com coin. I have a much larger version of the obverse/reverse pic if anyone needs it. >>
that's really wholesome, nice coin
oh no they have been removed. i hope we didn't get some authentic coins removed!
.
<< <i>Here's a picture of the 78-CC if anyone's interested. Try your own skill and see how long it takes you to match the MM/date locations to an HA.com coin. I have a much larger version of the obverse/reverse pic if anyone needs it. >>
I love the look of your 78-CC!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>Never fear, as soon as one fake is taken down another takes its place. >>
I was contacted offline about this other fake 73cc trade dollar. The seller has been contacted and notified that the trade dollar is not authentic. For what it's worth, I was told the sellers actual response was:
"Yes, thank you. I am saddened and completely unaware that this item is in fact a forgery. Another member has already approached me with the possibility of it not being authentic. I do not know coins a fraction as well as you other collectors. I've had it in my possession for a while collecting dust and thought it could benefit someone else's collection. I will seek its authenticity, or lack there of, and approach what to do with it from there. I do appreciate everyone's concern. If you could add my comment to the chat thread, I would greatly appreciate it. For the record, I sincerely had no idea of its possible forgery and I apologize for posting it without having it appraised as authentic."
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's a picture of the 78-CC if anyone's interested. Try your own skill and see how long it takes you to match the MM/date locations to an HA.com coin. I have a much larger version of the obverse/reverse pic if anyone needs it. >>
I love the look of your 78-CC!
Thanks, I liked it too. I had been searching for a nice "wholesome" as crypto put it, 78-CC trade dollar. Everything I found in a slab was seriously overpriced so I had to go the RAW route. Maybe the silver lining to all the fakes is that no one else wanted to touch that coin RAW so I was able to acquire it.
That's the ONLY way I would buy a raw Trade $. You did everything right, except checking for the metal content of the coin. But the above -- which I put in bold -- protected you from this problem. Remember, my fake had all of the right specs, too.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>For newbies here, I'd like to reiterate a post I've made several times on this forum. When I was in Vietnam, just for the heck of it, I walked into a coin shop. Asked the guy if he had any U.S. coins. He showed me a common date Washington Quarter and Franklin Half, then pulled out an 1875 CC Trade $.
I had been in various parts of Asia, and had seen numerous examples of fakes. Almost all of them were the 1875 S, and anyone who wasn't blind could tell they were fakes. This one was different. I had never seen a fake 1875 CC before, but I knew that it had to be a fake, since he was willing to give it to me for $32.
It actually looked legit. A number of years later, I brought it to Long Beach, and a number of dealers thought it was real. It certainly looked real; devices and denticles looked appropriate, he coin was the right weight, and the wear and contact marks were reasonable for an VF 35 or XF 40 of the series. Finally, one guy asked if it was okay to drop it on the concrete floor to listen to it 'ping,' to see if the metal content was correct or not. The 'ping' indicated that the metal content was off (not enough silver) and the coin was fake.
It was the best fake I've ever seen. Do yourself a favor. If you see a Trade $ and it's not in a first world TPG holder, assume it's fake. Otherwise, if you want to pi** away your money, you have been forewarned. >>
First of all thanks for all the replies - we got them shut down.
I do know that there are really good fakes for 1874-CC and 1875-CC trade dollars like you describe above and I personally have inspected some.-I could not tell they were fakes without a very close personal inspection of minor details--I suggest not buying any 1875-CC or 1874-CC trade dollar without PCGS,Anacs or NGC authentification. I think there are some on Ebay right now but I cannot tell without seeing and inspecting the coins in hand. Some of these have been around for many years. Even if you bought one of these dates 40 years ago-It still may not be genuine. Passable fake trade dollars have been around for many years.
Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>For newbies here...
Do yourself a favor. If you see a Trade $ and it's not in a first world TPG holder, assume it's fake. Otherwise, if you want to pi** away your money, you have been forewarned. >>
Overall good advice, but again I hate to see the fakes discourage new collectors from checking out the series, it's a fascinating albeit short series with so much history involved.
FWIW, just last week I purchased a RAW 78-CC in VF off a smallish dealers website. The 78-CC is one of the most counterfeited dates in the series, so here are the steps I followed (besides the obvious "does it look right"):
1. Checked obverse/reverse type, since many 78-CC fakes are type 1 reverse which doesn't exist.
2. Checked mint mark location and compared against known MM locations. HA.com is great for this.
3. Just to set my mind at ease, checked the date location on a few HA.com coins with the matching MM location. Matching up both the MM and date location gives me a die marriage match.
4. When the coin arrived, I weighed it. 27.0 grams which is consistent with other known genuine VF TD's I've weighed.
Bob
You could argue that all of the above still don't prove it's real. Sure, and that's why I made sure the dealer was reputable enough such that if PCGS called it fake I could get my money back. My point here is that even for the most counterfeited (key dates) coins in the series, it's really not that hard to buy with confidence. Of course, buying third party graded coins is also sound advice and a little easier than what I'll go through with the above coin.
Edit:
Here's a picture of the 78-CC if anyone's interested. Try your own skill and see how long it takes you to match the MM/date locations to an HA.com coin. I have a much larger version of the obverse/reverse pic if anyone needs it. >>
Thanks for this post - you have the skills needed to determine if an 1878-CC is genuine or not but 99.9% of collectors do have this skill or patience to do this, including me. I do not own this date but if and when I decide to get one it will be PCGS, Anacs or NGC.
Bob
<< <i>Thanks for this post - you have the skills needed to determine if an 1878-CC is genuine or not but 99.9% of collectors do have this skill or patience to do this, including me. I do not own this date but if and when I decide to get one it will be PCGS, Anacs or NGC.
Bob >>
buying in holders is nice but i have hundreds of images of pcgs/ngc holders that are counterfeit holders/coins and now starting to get a few with authentic coins with counterfeit holders.
buying from reputable sources PLUS education (most important) is the best way to minimize risk imo
.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for this post - you have the skills needed to determine if an 1878-CC is genuine or not but 99.9% of collectors do have this skill or patience to do this, including me. I do not own this date but if and when I decide to get one it will be PCGS, Anacs or NGC.
Bob >>
buying in holders is nice but i have hundreds of images of pcgs/ngc holders that are counterfeit holders/coins and now starting to get a few with authentic coins with counterfeit holders.
buying from reputable sources PLUS education (most important) is the best way to minimize risk imo
. >>
What he said.
Retired Coin Shop Owner .
Still Collecting
Love my Grandkids and my German Shepherd Dogs . Kind of like my wifes Cat.