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Who was it that scratched their initials into an 1804 $
DeliaBug
Posts: 881 ✭
And all their coins?
I know I can google this quite easily but figured others may benefit from the information.
Tom
I know I can google this quite easily but figured others may benefit from the information.
Tom
0
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Thanks TDN.
<< <i>I know it's the Dexter Dunham specimen that has a D stamped on the cloud, but can't recall which of the two did the stamping. >>
- TDN
Eric
<< <i>A little more info on the coin >>
From the linked article (my emphasis added):
<< <i>The coin's first appearance for sale in the U.S. came in a Chapman Brothers auction in May, 1885, where it was purchased by J.W. Scott (founder of Scott Stamp and Coin Co.) on behalf of his client James V. Dexter. It became the subject of a lawsuit the following year over its authenticity and was settled when the U.S. mint provided a "Certificate of Genuineness" for the coin. >>
Today it would have just been confiscated as illegitimate because the government "said so". Too bad. Dexter, so sad...
<< <i>NGC 65 holder now. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
And the funny thing is, if I bought a major rarity, damaged the coin by punching an initial into it and submitted it, there's no way it grades. I guess the pedigree, the history and the story can overcome the usual guidelines.
The evidence is rather inconclusive, it seems.
William T. Gibbs
News Editor
Coin World
these may or may not be useful, so i'll just post em
http://www.pcgs.com/books/breen-proofs/Chapter16-002.aspx - scroll down
http://www.pcgs.com/books/silver-dollars/Chapter08-008.aspx
http://www.pcgs.com/books/silver-dollars/Chapter12-030.aspx - bottom of the page
http://www.pcgs.com/books/silver-dollars/Chapter06Listings-011.aspx - seems like a lot of useful info here
http://coinhistory.info/usa/usa1900.htm - short reference to that sale/coin
http://coinauctionshelp.com/trade_morgan_drapedbust_silverdollarfakes.html a lot of provenance to Class III re-strikes on this page, maybe more
http://brycebooks.squarespace.com/storage/Coin-Auction-Catalogs.pdf - some references to coin auction cats - some digging here may prove useful
url too long - a lot of references to old catalogs
not to volunteer his services but i have "bestclser1" as a reference to auction cats in my helpful CU members file
edited to add:
. found this one useful
<< <i>I wrote about this topic in the July 12, 1989, issue of Coin World, using information and photographs that John Ford provided me. Ford believed that William Forrester Dunham and not James V. Dexter punched the D into the Dexter-Dunham 1804 dollar. Ford based this theory on Hard Times tokens from the Dunham Collection that have the same D punched into them as found on Dunham's 1804 dollar (Ford provided Coin World images of the counterpunched tokens). However, others believe that Dexter punched the D into the 1804 dollar. Q. David Bowers' The Rare Silver Dollars Dated 1804 states that "Dexter seems to have taken a 'D' punch and counterstamped his initial on a cloud on the reverse. Apparently, he marked certain other of his coins as well."
The evidence is rather inconclusive, it seems.
William T. Gibbs
News Editor
Coin World >>
Actually, the D stands for DeLorey..........
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>NGC 65 holder now. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
And the funny thing is, if I bought a major rarity, damaged the coin by punching an initial into it and submitted it, there's no way it grades. I guess the pedigree, the history and the story can overcome the usual guidelines. >>
Try it with a ultra-rarity like a 1913 Liberty nickel and see what happens.
<< <i>Aren't you thinking of the R, L or E quarters? Completely different. >>
No, this was the same little D (by an owner) on the front of the quarter as on the back of the 1804 dollar.. going to have to check my reference book tonight.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>NGC 65 holder now. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
Did it get a CAC sticker yet?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Update: I just googled the Dexter-Dunham piece and found it stated that this piece is now PCGS PR65 and tied with Eliasberg's in the TPG grading census. Since there are no current 66's, this means there are two possible 66 candidates promotable without likely disrupting the actual order in the census.
And who's to say both don't qualify?
BTW, when QDB was schlepping the yellow morocco case around the St. Moritz Grand Ballroom (how's that for an inelegant turn of phrase, Mr. Ryan) in '84 or so, the first time Adm. Unterman tried to sell the set, I held the '04 dollar raw and graded it 64+ using a 16x loupe. There are many scary elements to this story. Some of which fully hit home only as I started typing this.
The Garrett '04 $1, which sold in the same room 4 years previously, and then there again a year later, benefited much more from a plush carpet than the KOS coin.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>That to me makes it genuine and pcgs should put it in a gennie holder >>
I would consider this a borderline case due to the almost microscopic size of the D. I've seen bag marks that are larger on PCGS and NGC graded coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Hypothetical question---if a future owner had an expert remove this D, could it be graded and slabbed again. I could see an expert coin restorer burnishing out the D and it would look like a tiny scuff mark which would look quite natural for a large silver dollar. I consider the D to be graffiti and vandalism of this coin. >>
Have you had a lot of previous success with this process?
<< <i>
<< <i>Hypothetical question---if a future owner had an expert remove this D, could it be graded and slabbed again. I could see an expert coin restorer burnishing out the D and it would look like a tiny scuff mark which would look quite natural for a large silver dollar. I consider the D to be graffiti and vandalism of this coin. >>
Have you had a lot of previous success with this process?
I've never owned a coin with graffiti so I'd have to say no.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Hypothetical question---if a future owner had an expert remove this D, could it be graded and slabbed again. I could see an expert coin restorer burnishing out the D and it would look like a tiny scuff mark which would look quite natural for a large silver dollar. I consider the D to be graffiti and vandalism of this coin. >>
Don't let Laura read this question.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hypothetical question---if a future owner had an expert remove this D, could it be graded and slabbed again. I could see an expert coin restorer burnishing out the D and it would look like a tiny scuff mark which would look quite natural for a large silver dollar. I consider the D to be graffiti and vandalism of this coin. >>
Don't let Laura read this question.
Is it wrong to repair damage to a coin? I consider graffiti to be damage. If I owned this coin I wouldn't mess with it but I would like it a lot better without the D being punched into the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Aren't you thinking of the R, L or E quarters? Completely different. >>
No, this was the same little D (by an owner) on the front of the quarter as on the back of the 1804 dollar.. going to have to check my reference book tonight. >>
This is discussed in a write-up by Karl Moulton on page 187 of Steve Tompkins book "Early U.S. Quarters 1796 -1838".
It is inferred that while James V. Dexter owned an Essay 1827 over date quarter, he punched a small "D" on the
obverse cap above the ER in LIBERTY. It is similar to the one in the clouds of the 1804 dollar.
There is an image of the "D" countermark included.
R.I.P. Bear
Kind of makes it less likely that "Dunham Done it" if indeed the punches were the same, and unless Dunham also coincidentally owned the quarter as well as the dollar
as far as the damage to these particular coins, they're part of the unique history of these special pieces; it's unlikely if their value could be improved by changing them in any way (exept, of course, by putting them in holders with higher numbers, more stickers, or somebody's pedigree name on it)
there's also a story in Steve's excellent book about a coin (a different 1827 quarter, I believe) which went down several circulated grades by being carried for the better part of two decades as a pocket piece by one of the owners
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry