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Need help using "MS70" to clean tarnish (toning) from silver coins
apollo14
Posts: 146 ✭✭✭
Hi gang:
I am attempting to use "MS70" to remove unsightly toning from a silver coin. However, whether I used a cue-tip to apply the solution and rub lightly, or even let the coin sit in a bowl of the solution over a period of minutes, nothing seems to be happening and the toning (tarnish) is unchanged.
Thoughts or advice?
Thanks!
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i> will "e-z-est" damage the surface of a B.U. silver coin (impare the original cartwheel luster) to the point where the coin cannot be graded? >>
Yes, and the more that a coin is dipped the worse it will look. some will say a single dip is ok, especially for Proofs, but it is still risky - especially if you are working with a coin of increased value above that of its metal content.
<< <i>... will "e-z-est" damage the surface of a B.U. silver coin (impare the original cartwheel luster) to the point where the coin cannot be graded? >>
A quick dip doesn't usually hurt but a long dip or numerous quick dips will impair the luster making it dull and lifeless. The effects of dipping are cumulative since you lose a tiny bit of surface silver with each dip.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'll throw out my observations which may or may not be considered correct. I decided to experiment a little with melt-value Peace Dollars. I wanted to know what dipped and undipped looked like and I also wanted to know what level of toning could be successfully removed. I tried EZ-est. Peace Dollars seemed like a good candidate since they are readily available in ugly shades of everything from light yellow to deep black. Attractive toning on a Peace Dollar is a rare thing! I did most of my testing on coins with visible luster remaining. Most of these were lightly circulated "sliders" or lower-grade common-date examples.
I deliberately dipped a few to the point of impairing their luster. These coins take on a fried appearance and become a flat, dull, silver color. Many, many coins in the world look like this. Coins in holders almost never do, except for truly rare pieces, coins more than 150-200 years old, or coins which are otherwise special enough to deserve a grade even if impaired. Depending on die state, some coins never had much luster, which is a topic for another day. I dipped a few very darkly toned coins and discovered a tremendously beautiful "blast-white" coin underneath that still retained a huge amount of flashy luster. A couple of these have a shot at grading as high as MS63 to MS64 after the dip. I would not have given them a serious look before. Not newsworthy, but impressive for stuff I bought at melt value. Before the dip they were UGLY. Coins with deeply embeded toning (corrosion) usually don't go back to a fully lusterous appearance. They take on an ugly "messed-with" appearance and were probably beyond help to start with. Yes, it is possible to over-dip Peace Dollars, but I was actually surprised at what I could get away with without impairing the luster.
To date I have not been brave or stupid enough to try this on anything that I consider to have actual numismatic value. It has opened my eyes though about how many coins on the market today are probably seeing the dip bucket. Walking around the bourse, it's truly impressive to see what percentage of Peace Dollars are offered with "original" skin. Many of the larger dealers don't have a single example in their very large display case of even faint toning. Really? How can that be? Maybe that's all some dealers buy, but I doubt that's true for all of them. They ALL tell me the white ones sell better. The VAST majority of these coins on the bourse are white, which in my opinion is unlikely to be their natural state given the fact that they are approaching a century old. Lower-grade Peace dollars are readily found with a more natural look. Many, many of the nicer coins probably take a bath each time trade hands and are re-submitted. Over time, I expect this practice will impair the population of coins with original surfaces.
If you want to try dipping with anything of value, I'd recommend LOTS of practice on worthless coins to get a feel for what will look better and what will be ruined. Still there is always a potential downside. Dipping can reveal problems like subtle hairlines that couldn't be seen under the toning. Dipping can leave spots that were relatively hidden before. It's possible to make or lose a pile of money doing this and so on it goes. The people that manufacture EZ-est are probably in no danger of going out of business any time soon.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Thanks!
The problem is what you said is somewhat encouraging to the would be EZest'r.
Unless for conservation purposes that albsolutely need to be done, I'd hope everyone would stay away from the chemical dips. Even for conservation, a chemical dip would be a last resort.
If the coins are not appealing, sell them, or don't buy them. Move on. Find ones you like better. Hopefully the ones that have that "if only I dipped it" look (followed by thoughts of dollar signs) will appeal to someone else, before the deed.
Ultimately multiple dipping will destroy a coin (over time). As PerryHall mentioned, the effects of dipping are cummulative.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I thought I made it clear in my post that I share the view that the net effect of dipping is the gradual destruction of coins. It does, however, work to accomplish a short-term goal, however short-sighted that goal might be. As long as there is any financial incentive to do it (market demand for old, white coins), the practice will likely continue on a large scale. I did my experimenting mostly to understand what dipping could and could not do with a goal of a better understanding of what I was seeing in the market. I truly prefer original surfaces. Sometimes toning impairs eye appeal to such an extent that it is warranted. The TPGs, museum curators, and market forces understand this. Some truly horrible disasters have resulted from over-zealous use of the dip bucket but lots of nice coins were salvaged in this way too.
In the case of my favorite series, Peace Dollars, they just don't tone nicely (with notable exceptions). I suspect these get dipped far more often than early coinage, bust or seated coins, and the like. Not many people are looking for a newly dipped Flowing Hair half dollar. On Peace Dollars I actually prefer a certain amount of album/rim toning, but not every Peace Dollar is so lucky, and I'm obviously in the minority on this one. With Peace Dollars I see no harm in dipping sliders or low-grade MS, common-date coins that are truly ugly to begin with. They're anything but rare, and most of them are destined for the melt pot anyway. When it comes to scarce coins or condition rarities, I feel strongly that 99% of them should be left alone! You can never un-dip a coin and you can never replace the molecules removed by the dip.
You did, and again, I applaud you for you original post to the thread. It seems to be an almost taboo subject, even though many of us see the effects of this gradual destruction everyday.
For the record, I have done it too. Just so I knew. And even knowing, I have bought dipped coins. Sometimes there's a really fine line before the coin will be ruined, and usually that is noticable if you know what to look for. Once it's over, there's no turning back ... but it's usually over even before that.
But you know this ... you somewhat stated it in your post. I just hope the newer collectors who may read this realize that there is no going back. You can not un-do it.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Eric
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Apparently PCGS's "sniffer" told them that the coin was cleaned so they wouldn't grade it. I also have an 1891 silver dollar in a PCGS 64 green label holder. The obverse is beautifully toned but there is some dark, ugly toning on the reverse which I think limits the coin's grade. Given my experience with the 1879-O, I'm affraid to use MS-70 on it. Anyone have any other suggestions?
Thanks
<< <i>Several months ago I cracked an 1879-O silver dollar out of its ANACS 64 holder. I did not care for its light yellow toning so I carefully used a Q-tip to apply some MS-70. Almost all of the toning was removed and the coin now is much more lustrous and attractive in my opinion.
Apparently PCGS's "sniffer" told them that the coin was cleaned so they wouldn't grade it. >>
Sounds like there may be a trace of MS70 residue on your coin. A soak in acetone followed by a good rinse in acetone should remove any trace of the MS70.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
They are in this order :
"... help...clean... silver coins." That's no help at all.
<< <i>Several months ago I cracked an 1879-O silver dollar out of its ANACS 64 holder. I did not care for its light yellow toning so I carefully used a Q-tip to apply some MS-70. Almost all of the toning was removed and the coin now is much more lustrous and attractive in my opinion.
Apparently PCGS's "sniffer" told them that the coin was cleaned so they wouldn't grade it. I also have an 1891 silver dollar in a PCGS 64 green label holder. The obverse is beautifully toned but there is some dark, ugly toning on the reverse which I think limits the coin's grade. Given my experience with the 1879-O, I'm affraid to use MS-70 on it. Anyone have any other suggestions?
Thanks >>
The Sniffer doesn't detect cleaning. It sniffs to ID residue of substances PCGS doesn't like. If it was BB'd for cleaning that does not mean it has residue. It simply means PCGS feels it was improperly cleaned.
As Perry said, if it was about a banned substance like Blue Ribbon a rinse in acetone should correct things.
Lance.