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1853 Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar - New DC creation?
jmcu12
Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭
I was conversing with DC and he suggested that this might in the works, or at least under consideration. I for one would love to see this and would certainly buy 2 or 3 for myself.
I know a lot of people out there dont like what DC does but I think he serves a niche and he is a very talented artist.
So if you are reading this DC please do this the Arrows and Rays design is one of my more favorite in classic coinage!
I know a lot of people out there dont like what DC does but I think he serves a niche and he is a very talented artist.
So if you are reading this DC please do this the Arrows and Rays design is one of my more favorite in classic coinage!
Awarded latest "YOU SUCK!": June 11, 2014
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Fantasy IMO, even though struck on a real coin...
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Since Seated Liberty Dollars dated 1853 were struck, these would be counterfeit U.S. coins.
I too think it would look very pretty.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Since Seated Liberty Dollars dated 1853 were struck, these would be counterfeit U.S. coins. >>
Wrong again.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>I disagree that it would be a counterfeit since an arrows and rays does not exist. >>
how many details of a coin must change before it is not a counterfeit?
remove the top left serif on the second L in Dollar and it is no longer a counterfeit since none were made that way?
However I think in this case enough of a design characteristics are different (arrows and rays to be specific) that it becomes obviously a fantasy strike.
But still the question is how much is enough? 1 item, 2, 4 or more, etc.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Since Seated Liberty Dollars dated 1853 were struck, these would be counterfeit U.S. coins. >>
Wrong again. >>
Upon what legal precedent do you base your opinion?
<< <i>I think mm raises a valid point - it can become a slippery slope to what the definition is.
However I think in this case enough of a design characteristics are different (arrows and rays to be specific) that it becomes obviously a fantasy strike.
But still the question is how much is enough? 1 item, 2, 4 or more, etc. >>
There have been two issues where I produced over-strikes that did not carry a fantasy date:
1) 2009 "proofed" Silver Eagles.
Those had two significant changes: surface finish, and "DC" mint mark. They were struck only on 2009 Silver Eagles, so the date was not changed.
2) 1861 "Confederate Double Eagles.
The reverse side was completely different from the original Union issue, and the CSA never issued anything with that obverse design, nor did they issue anything in gold, or with a denomination greater than Half Dollar.
An 1853 Arrows & Rays over-strike dollar would have significant design changes on both sides - arrows on front and rays on back, of course.
If these were over-struck only on genuine 1853 Seated Liberty dollars, I believe they would be altered coins, not counterfeit coins.
Arguably, an 1853 Arrows & Rays Seated Liberty dollar could be considered a fantasy type.
I think the Arrows and Rays dollar is cool and would be worth considering.
In the same time period, I think a 1848-S CAL eagle could be interesting as well, with the 'S' and 'CAL' being two differences in this fantasy piece.
<< <i>Actually, that would be kinda cool. >>
I agree, it's a cool idea. I have only bought
two fantasy pieces of Dan Carr, the Confederate
$20.00 in .999 bullion and a 1931 SLQ. I missed
out on the 1964-D Peace Dollar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
For example (Overstruck on a $10 Lib):
1817/1793 $10 Eagle with the obverse of a flowing hair half dollar and the reverse of a $5 capped bust left but with "5D" changed to "2 1/2 D", throwing in a few corrected spelling mistakes that the mint has made (like STATES over STATED).
Now that is something I'd buy! 1817/1793 would look like the most dramatic overdate in my eyes but I'm open to suggestions
Or, if you'd want to make something less dramatic, I would really love a $10 eagle with the flowing hair half dollar obverse and the small eagle reverse.
*exit soapbox*
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
LOL, but true.
I just like to say stuff like that to annoy "the Captain"....
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
Can you show me real specimens of these coins? If not, they are fantasy coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
what were they stuck on?
(and henning nickels?)
(aren't I a
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
Can you show me real specimens of these coins? If not, they are fantasy coins. >>
You have a poor understanding of the U.S. counterfeiting laws.
"-HEAD-
Sec. 485. Coins or bars
-STATUTE-
Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in
resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than
5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or
assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude
of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or
in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings
into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or
bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with
intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or
attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
fifteen years, or both."
The key word is similitude. Does not have to be an exact copy.
<< <i>
<< <i>So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
what were they stuck on? >>
MsMorrisine has it right. The reason the Soviet dimes are counterfeits and these are fantasy dates is because these pieces are altered-genuine coins, not new fabrications.
It seems we cannot escape the old arguments. Not mentioning the over-striking process appears to give this old argument legs, but when we go over old arguments, why not include all the details so we're not starting from square one every time?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
Can you show me real specimens of these coins? If not, they are fantasy coins. >>
You have a poor understanding of the U.S. counterfeiting laws. >>
You're comparing apples to oranges here. Dan Carr is making fantasy varieties of obsolete coins that haven't circulated for decades. Before Dan made his 1964-D Peace dollars, he wrote letters to the Secret Service among other government agencies telling them what was he was planning to do and they never objected to his plans. Let's just agree to disagree on this issue.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
what is similar?
one missing serif is similar?
as DCarr pointed out, proof-like finish and a DC mintmark is not similar? or is it still similar?
Does this really need the word "COPY" on it? It's terrible. Similar? Not similar?
Chocolate Coins? Plastic Teaching Money?
<< <i>Dan Carr is making fantasy varieties of obsolete coins that haven't circulated for decades. >>
don't go down that road.
old coins can't be counterfeited? That smells a lot like the PRChina laws that let them manufacture thousands of Morgans, etc. with impugnity.
counterfeit? The mint does not make holograms.
the mint didn't make 2009 proofs that year, does that mean the DC version can't be a counterfeit?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>On their website, the Secret Service says that counterfeit coins are sometimes made by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. >>
know your money
Today counterfeit coins are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. Sometimes this is done by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. The most common changes are the removal, addition or alteration of the coin's date or mint marks.
<< <i>
<< <i>On their website, the Secret Service says that counterfeit coins are sometimes made by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. >>
know your money
Today counterfeit coins are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. Sometimes this is done by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. The most common changes are the removal, addition or alteration of the coin's date or mint marks. >>
I believe the Secret Service is talking about imitation numismatic items that would be covered under the HPA.
<< <i>The term "original numismatic item" means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.
(4) The term "imitation numismatic item" means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. >>
In the cases here, there is no original numismatic item as defined by the HPA, so there in lies the difference.
<< <i>I believe the Secret Service is talking about imitation numismatic items that would be covered under the HPA. >>
People believe all kinds of things. Some believe that when those running the government say something, that "something" can always be depended on to be so and that the people who run the government will never change their minds about it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>On their website, the Secret Service says that counterfeit coins are sometimes made by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. >>
know your money
Today counterfeit coins are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. Sometimes this is done by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. The most common changes are the removal, addition or alteration of the coin's date or mint marks. >>
I believe the Secret Service is talking about imitation numismatic items that would be covered under the HPA.
<< <i>The term "original numismatic item" means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.
(4) The term "imitation numismatic item" means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. >>
In the cases here, there is no original numismatic item as defined by the HPA, so there in lies the difference. >>
Saying "I believe" when it comes to the secret service or anything like this is pretty slippery. Would you be willing to put your neck on the line for your "I believe"?
Once again, I am not surprised by what DC appears to be going forward with. Step by step it gets even closer to pure profit and greed driving counterfeit/counterfeit like coining.
I have 2 NY SHQs that are DC signed that I found in an old "extras" box. I am either going to sell them or trash them as I want nothing by DC around as I don't believe in what he is doing and it disgusts me (sorry, but I had a friend ripped off, luckily not for too much, by "fantasy" pieces....ie, coins that never existed but that a novice did not know were fakes. They were from China but may as well have been from DC because neither would have had COPY on them and an unknowing person, trusting someone else, can easily be ripped off for more than the item is actually worth).
Greed and profit are driving this....if they weren't, then "COPY" wouldn't be as big of an issue.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Saying "I believe" when it comes to the secret service or anything like this is pretty slippery. >>
I think this is a prudent way of saying anything about any person or organization that you are not authorized to speak for. This is even true for Secret Service employees that are not authorized to give position statements.
<< <i>This thread reminds me of the movie, "Groundhog Day". >>
A cable station recently showed "Groundhog Day" twice a day back to back, three days in a row.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
The 1923-D and 1930-D dimes were made for the purpose of spending at face value for a profit. They were not struck over genuine dimes. They were minted for the purpose of deceiving merchants into accepting them as legal tender at face value. So that makes them currency counterfeits.
What I do, of course, is to alter a genuine coin and offer it as a novelty piece with full disclosure. I do not claim any legal tender status for them.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
So you are saying that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are not counterfeits? >>
The 1923-D and 1930-D dimes were made for the purpose of spending at face value for a profit. They were not struck over genuine dimes. They were minted for the purpose of deceiving merchants into accepting them as legal tender at face value. So that makes them currency counterfeits.
What I do, of course, is to alter a genuine coin and offer it as a novelty piece with full disclosure. I do not claim any legal tender status for them. >>
So, you agree that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes, which did not exist, are counterfeits.
Then this argument is false:
"<< Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. "
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>On their website, the Secret Service says that counterfeit coins are sometimes made by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. >>
know your money
Today counterfeit coins are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. Sometimes this is done by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. The most common changes are the removal, addition or alteration of the coin's date or mint marks. >>
I believe the Secret Service is talking about imitation numismatic items that would be covered under the HPA. ... >>
A lot of it has to do with intent. I believe that the Secret Service is referring here to altered coins that are passed in a deceptive manner.
If you take a 1944-D cent, cut off parts of the 4 to make what looks like a "1914-D" cent, that is actually legal because defacing money is not illegal (except for fraudulent puerposes). If you sold that "1914-D" cent as an altered 1944-D cent, that is also still legal. However, if you knowingly sell it while purpously not disclosing the 1944-D origins, that becomes fraudulent.
<< <i>I have 2 NY SHQs that are DC signed that I found in an old "extras" box. I am either going to sell them or trash them as I want nothing by DC around as I don't believe in what he is doing and it disgusts me (sorry, but I had a friend ripped off, luckily not for too much, by "fantasy" pieces....ie, coins that never existed but that a novice did not know were fakes. They were from China but may as well have been from DC because neither would have had COPY on them and an unknowing person, trusting someone else, can easily be ripped off for more than the item is actually worth). >>
If you don't know what you are buying, you can run into trouble. That is true with coins, used cars, houses, all sorts of things. A vast quantity of things advertised on TV are rip-offs. Had your friend purchased one of my over-strike coins he potentially could have made a financial gain, since they currently do tend to re-sell for more than the issue prices.
<< <i>Step by step it gets even closer to pure profit and greed driving counterfeit/counterfeit like coining. ... >>
There is no "step by step" here. My latest over-strike piece ("1816" half dollar) is no more a "counterfeit" than the first over-strike piece I did ("1964-D" dollar).
<< <i>Greed and profit are driving this... . >>
Yes, the evil greedy capitalists at work.
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread reminds me of the movie, "Groundhog Day". >>
A cable station recently showed "Groundhog Day" twice a day back to back, three days in a row. >>
Very cool!
This thread reminds me of the movie, "Groundhog Day".
<< <i>... So, you agree that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes, which did not exist, are counterfeits.
Then this argument is false:
"<< Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. " >>
The original (Soviet made ?) 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are currency counterfeits. If I took genuine Winged Liberty Head silver dimes and over-struck them to produce "1923-D" And "1930-D" dimes, and sold them as novelty items (with full disclosure of their origins), then they would be correctly classified as altered coins, not counterfeit coins.
An 1853 dollar with arrows and rays added is an altered genuine coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. >>
What people fail to realize is that if someone other than the mint makes Something that even resembles a genuine mint product, it is a counterfeit. Deceptive, fantasy, crude, art are terms collectors use not the law. Just because the secrete service hasn't challanged carr's self serving interpatation of the law doesn't mean it is the correct one.
<< <i>
<< <i>... So, you agree that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes, which did not exist, are counterfeits.
Then this argument is false:
"<< Are these considered fantasy or counterfeit coins? >>
Unless you can find a real Arrows and Rays Seated Dollar, it can't be considered a counterfeit. You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist---a simple concept that some people have trouble grasping. It would be a fantasy coin. " >>
The original (Soviet made ?) 1923-D and 1930-D dimes are currency counterfeits. If I took genuine Winged Liberty Head silver dimes and over-struck them to produce "1923-D" And "1930-D" dimes, and sold them as novelty items (with full disclosure of their origins), then they would be correctly classified as altered coins, not counterfeit coins.
An 1853 dollar with arrows and rays added is an altered genuine coin. >>
Thank you for agreeing that it is possible to counterfeit something that did not previously exist, as the makers of the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes did.
The question of intent is a seperate issue that can be argued ad infinitum.