Yet another staggering bid on an Engelhard bar
piecesofme
Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
Hard to believe
I don't know what's more insane. Some people picking me apart for wanting a little premium for "harder to find" silver bars, or the people that bid on these.
I vote the people that bid that much on these, admitedly, rare bars and like the other 10 oz bar that just had an E on it that went for $930 this past week.
I guess the old saying holds true...it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it (and the part I like to add to that) and what someone is willing to part with it.
I don't know what's more insane. Some people picking me apart for wanting a little premium for "harder to find" silver bars, or the people that bid on these.
I vote the people that bid that much on these, admitedly, rare bars and like the other 10 oz bar that just had an E on it that went for $930 this past week.
I guess the old saying holds true...it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it (and the part I like to add to that) and what someone is willing to part with it.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
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MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's all about what the people want...
You forgot the part about having to have many shill bidding friends to artificially inflate the value of what is being represented
There is no way in he11 that bar is worth that much...but I digress.
give the bidders the benefit of a doubt
Why is it that you constantly disagree with me? Did you ever think I make a big deal of it because I may have proof?
You did not have the proof the last time you accused bidders of colluding. And since you have purchased items from this seller before, I doubt you would bid on items from them if you had such proof, unless of course, you discovered that proof after your dealings.
And the item sold for roughly the same premium as a three ozer.
Congrats to the seller for starting it out at $0.99 and letting the market determine its value.
<< <i>Congrats to the seller for starting it out at $0.99 and letting the market determine its value. >>
Good grief......you just let the "cat out of the bag."
<< <i>Hard to believe >>
Not really hard to believe.
Below is a photograph of what every other 16.075 oz Engelhard I have ever seen (until this week) looks like. Can you spot the difference?
Below is the bar that sold tonight.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>Easy...Avoid the BST for your pricey rarer bars and sell them on eBay, with your auctions starting at $.99, ... avoid high opening bids or unrealistic BIN's. You're guaranteeing yourself the highest selling price.
You forgot the part about having to have many shill bidding friends to artificially inflate the value of what is being represented
There is no way in he11 that bar is worth that much...but I digress. >>
You said it yourself....It's worth as much as some one is willing to pay for it. Btw, how many of those bars do you have in your stable?
I'll say it again in case you skimmed over what I said. I have proof.
You did not have the proof the last time you accused bidders of colluding
Things are not always as they appear to be on a chat board.
since you have purchased items from this seller before, I doubt you would bid on items from them if you had such proof, unless of course, you discovered that proof after your dealings.
Ah-HAH! You're on to something. You haven't seen me win anything from the seller in awhile, there's a reason for that.
I digress, it's been over and done with for awhile.
You're forgetting a very key element to any auction, it also depends on what someone is willing to let it go for. If a seller is not willing to let it go below a certain price and the auction appears to be legit, no harm no foul, right?
WRONG!
<< <i>Easy...Avoid the BST for your pricey rarer bars and sell them on eBay, with your auctions starting at $.99, ... avoid high opening bids or unrealistic BIN's. You're guaranteeing yourself the highest selling price. >>
Yep. For this post...........
Ebay is the best place IMO to sell rare silver art bars and old poured silver bars because ebay has a large group of collectors who are willing to pay high premiums to obtain a particular bar that they want to add to their collection. Despite the high fees that the sellers have to deal with, Ebay is the closest thing that we have to a free market in terms of selling high premium silver bars and coins and, as far as I know, there is no other online competition that can match ebay.
<< <i>
<< <i>Easy...Avoid the BST for your pricey rarer bars and sell them on eBay, with your auctions starting at $.99, ... avoid high opening bids or unrealistic BIN's. You're guaranteeing yourself the highest selling price. >>
Yep. For this post...........
Ebay is the best place IMO to sell rare silver art bars and old poured silver bars because ebay has a large group of collectors who are willing to pay high premiums to obtain a particular bar that they want to add to their collection. Despite the high fees that the sellers have to deal with, Ebay is the closest thing that we have to a free market in terms of selling high premium silver bars and coins and, as far as I know, there is no other online competition that can match ebay. >>
Unfortunately you are correct. On esoteric items it's probably the best audience for true price discovery. I don't use Ebay (nor will I ever) and have a devil of a time getting these hard to come by bars one by one. I've had to buy a few complete collections by private treaty to get the ones I own.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Go figure.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Easy...Avoid the BST for your pricey rarer bars and sell them on eBay, with your auctions starting at $.99, ... avoid high opening bids or unrealistic BIN's. You're guaranteeing yourself the highest selling price. >>
Yep. For this post...........
Ebay is the best place IMO to sell rare silver art bars and old poured silver bars because ebay has a large group of collectors who are willing to pay high premiums to obtain a particular bar that they want to add to their collection. Despite the high fees that the sellers have to deal with, Ebay is the closest thing that we have to a free market in terms of selling high premium silver bars and coins and, as far as I know, there is no other online competition that can match ebay. >>
Unfortunately you are correct. On esoteric items it's probably the best audience for true price discovery. I don't use Ebay (nor will I ever) and have a devil of a time getting these hard to come by bars one by one. I've had to buy a few complete collections by private treaty to get the ones I own.
MJ >>
I have never sold anything on ebay but, on a daily basis, I have been watching winning bids and BIN sale prices on certain silver art bars and I have seen very high winning bids on them. The only time that I use ebay is when I want to buy a rare silver art bar that I could not find at a LCS or coin show but still want it bad enough to where I am willing to pay a high collector's premium for it. I have not bought many silver art bars on ebay this year because I have been concentrating on buying them at the LCS and at coin shows at .999 generic silver premiums.
The one that sold tonight looks poured and the other one looks extruded. Is that it?
If it sold on eBay, it has to be legit, right?
Seriously, there's two particular sellers, both out of MI coincidentally, that ocasionally make it appear that a bar sold because they have alot of them on the site, then he can say to a prospective buyer, one sold at this price.
Not being mean, but it's pretty ignorant to think that it doesn't happen, when a bar suddenly goes for 2.5x what every other seller on the site ends up getting for it...and the seller just happens to have dozens of them.
<< <i>Below is a photograph of what every other 16.075 oz Engelhard I have ever seen (until this week) looks like. Can you spot the difference?
The one that sold tonight looks poured and the other one looks extruded. Is that it? >>
Yes - tonight's was the first poured 16.075 oz I've seen.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>I have been watching winning bids and BIN sale prices on certain silver art bars and I have seen very high winning bids on them
If it sold on eBay, it has to be legit, right?
Seriously, there's two particular sellers, both out of out of MI coincidentally, that ocasionally make it appear that a bar sold because they have alot of them on the site, then he can say to a prospective buyer, one sold at this price.
Not being mean, but it's pretty ignorant to think that it doesn't happen, when a bar suddenly goes for 2.5x what every other seller on the site ends up getting for it...and the seller just happens to have dozens of them. >>
What dealers? Which sites? MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you know and don't have a problem with letting us know (presuming you own the extruded one), how does the value of the extruded one compare to the poured one that sold tonight?
So you can run to them and say that i'm bad mouthing them? nice try
they're both on eBay and both out of MI.
<< <i>I have been watching winning bids and BIN sale prices on certain silver art bars and I have seen very high winning bids on them
If it sold on eBay, it has to be legit, right?
Seriously, there's two particular sellers, both out of out of MI coincidentally, that ocasionally make it appear that a bar sold because they have alot of them on the site, then he can say to a prospective buyer, one sold at this price.
Not being mean, but it's pretty ignorant to think that it doesn't happen, when a bar suddenly goes for 2.5x what every other seller on the site ends up getting for it...and the seller just happens to have dozens of them. >>
I will not dispute what you said because I do not know and I have not been paying attention to the old pour Engelhards or any other old pour silver bar auctions on ebay. I can only go by my observations of winning bids on certain silver art bars and, for the most part, the winning bids that I have seen on certain rare silver art bars have been fairly consistent and I have been tracking some of the winning bids for about 2 years.
<< <i>You said it yourself....It's worth as much as some one is willing to pay for it.
You're forgetting a very key element to any auction, it also depends on what someone is willing to let it go for. If a seller is not willing to let it go below a certain price and the auction appears to be legit, no harm no foul, right?
WRONG! >>
Ebay has the largest audience on this planet and if no one is willing to pay your price, it's overpriced. It happens to sellers who sank to much money into the item to begin with, and refuse to accept a loss now. With auctions, you win some and sometimes you loose.
1. The auction started at 99 cents with no reserve.
2. The ending price is insane because "There is no way in he11 that bar is worth that much.."
3. Shill bidders have the ability to artificially inflate an item.
4. The auction is a sham involving collusion because you tell us so.
5. So the bar really didn't sell for that much and nothing really insane happened.
1. The auction started at 99 cents with no reserve.
2. The ending price is insane because "There is no way in he11 that bar is worth that much.."
3. Shill bidders have the ability to artificially inflate an item.
4. The auction is a sham involving collusion because you tell us so.
5. So the bar really didn't sell for that much and nothing really insane happened>>>
I will reply to that by saying something I did in the inital post:
I don't know what's more insane. Some people picking me apart for wanting a little premium for "harder to find" silver bars, or the people that bid on these.
Everyone is more than free to believe what they want to, just as I am free to voice what I feel is obviously going on.
Here comes the part where I start getting picked apart for stating what I feel. I know Sean, you've been here longer than me, so anything you say trumps whatever I say, right?
Time served on the Earth, or on this forum, doesn't mean one grows in mind.
<< <i>Yes - tonight's was the first poured 16.075 oz I've seen.
If you know and don't have a problem with letting us know (presuming you own the extruded one), how does the value of the extruded one compare to the poured one that sold tonight? >>
Again there is no Redbook for these bars. My old ideas of value have been thrown out the window this year. Interest is heightened substantially with the arrival of serious players.
I have seen the extruded 16.075 bars sell 10-15 times in the last 18 months. They probably sold (trusting my memory here) in the $800 to $1,200 range. They fetch more with the original wooden box and fabric sheath used to protect the bar. It is reasonable to assume the poured variety is worth more since in my opinion they are far scarcer.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>$107/oz, and it's not even an E-hard
Go figure. >>
There is one common denominator in this sellers auctions that I can see, and the reasons he's getting the high bids.
A) Rare or unusual bars
C) Low s&h fee
D) Excellent F.B.(over 3500) with a rating of 5.0 in all but s&h ( 4.9 ) categories
E) Seller on eBay for 7 years...................................................
Good grief man, if you can't trust him or her, who can you trust?
<< <i>OGIM- Any chance the bar was acid etched? >>
I don't know what acid etching would look like. I don't believe that process could move metal.
Look at the photos. I see cooling lines and the irregularities characteristic of a poured bar. The extruded bars have entirely smooth surfaces but for the logo, etc on the obverse.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>What dealers? Which sites? MJ
So you can run to them and say that i'm bad mouthing them? nice try
they're both on eBay and both out of MI. >>
I think you are a paranoid individual and need some form of help. If something does't fit your equation you cry wolf or foul. That is your MO. That is how you debate. You just recently accused me and Wingsrule of collusion in a thread were you thought we were piling on you. I can assure you there was no collusion, ever. Your proof? Oh, you offered it was because we were on line at the same time.
I don't know any dealers out of Michigan to run to. There is only one dealer in Michigan I have ever bought a collectable bar from and it wasn't silver. I don't use Ebay. I don't have an Ebay account.
Now what? The more you type the more I wonder about you. I think you should either bring proof or just shut the ___ up. The only form of proof you ever bring is a winkie Emotion. Others might buy that you know what you are talking about. I'm not one of them.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Everyone is more than free to believe what they want to, just as I am free to voice what I feel is obviously going on.
Here comes the part where I start getting picked apart for stating what I feel. I know Sean, you've been here longer than me, so anything you say trumps whatever I say, right?
Time served on the Earth, or on this forum, doesn't mean one grows in mind. >>
Maybe I'm a little slow tonight. Can you please explain to me what is obviously going on?
OK. Thanks.
<< <i>Maybe I'm a little slow tonight. Can you please explain to me what is obviously going on? >>
I have no idea but it beats the heck out of all the Hussein threads. And it even has pics of PMs.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I'm a little slow tonight. Can you please explain to me what is obviously going on? >>
I have no idea but it beats the heck out of all the Hussein threads. And it even has pics of PMs. >>
Don't get me started on that you agent provocateur! Those posts always flip me out
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Now I'm being told to shut the ___ up. Did you get that folks? That's nice MJ, real professional.
I think I'm in your head is what I think. You were on a different continent and you posted a jab about me saying you couldn't find anyone there that didn't think silver would ever top $30 again. You were thinking of me, on vacation, on a different continent...that's telling me something about you as well bud.
You don't like what I say, simply ignore me, just as I typically do to the haters.
How many times do I normally even repsond to you, think about it. It's usually only when you're taking another unjustified side swipe at me.
For certain this is a poured bar and I suspect a prototype. Great piece of Engelhard history to be sure.
The winning bidder chose wisely.
I've gone months without ever responding to one of your threads so don't flatter yourself.
I did take a swipe at you in the thread you alluded to. So what? I'm no angel and far from perfect. You deserved it imho.
You can dish it out but you certainly can't take it. Capiche? MJ
edited for clarity because there was a post before mine.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The half kilo bar is a special piece... all others I've seen have been machined/extruded with a brilliant finish.
For certain this is a poured bar and I suspect a prototype. Great piece of Engelhard history to be sure.
The winning bidder chose wisely. >>
That's my opinion as well but of course that would be an inconvenient truth to the OP. I wish I owned it.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As far as all the other nonsense... the drama queen stuff gets really old really fast. I hope TN didn't get banned because of all this garbage.
Oh well, I'm smart enough to know when the odds are stacked and when stubborness can not be talked to. Done with it.
Funny how I didn't even get a thank you for bringing this incredible bar to the forums attention. I guess all most here have for me is hate and disbelief. Whatever. That's fine.
<< <i>I can't make people believe what they feel they know, but what I don't get is, why can one not even consider what I am saying. The thought of collusion is just totally dismissed. Unreal.
Oh well, I'm smart enough to know when the odds are stacked and when stubborness can not be talked to. Done with it.
Funny how I didn't even get a thank you for bringing this incredible bar to the forums attention. I guess all most here have for me is hate and disbelief. Whatever. That's fine. >>
This needs to be saved. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No, if he in fact is, I can assure you 1000% it wasn't because of this garbage. I take threats on my well being extremely seriously. A PI has been hired, that's all I better say.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>I am certainly no expert on silver bars but I did have the impression that poured bars antedated extruded ones, in all cases of manufacturers who produced both. So how could the bar which is the subject of this thread (well, one of the subjects of this thread.... LOL) be an authentic poured bar when its serial number is much higher than the one shown which is extruded? Did Englehard first produce extruded bars and then go back to poured bars, even for a short time? I've never heard of that but once again, I know next to nothing of the matter. I did own an apparently very old Englehard poured 20 ounce bar and the bar in question here doesn't really look "right" but the serial number issue is of more interest to me than the bar's look.
The great reference book about Engelhard bars is yet to be written. Information is fragmentary.
Don't put too much stock in serial numbers. #93078 does not necessarily mean 93,077 were made prior to this one. It may mean it is #78 of a run of poured 1/2 kilo with the 93 prefix chosen arbitrarily to signify an order number. It can still be earlier than extruded/machined bars and yet have a higher serial number. It can also be a later protype. Our chronology is uncertain for all things Engelhard. The company either did not keep production records with the specificity of the US Mint or they have been lost. They were a profit driven company producing silver products based on orders. I don't see any connection between serial number and authenticity. I have no doubts about this bar's authenticity.
There is one point on which I can be certain. In 18 months of daily searching of Engelhard listings it is the only one of its type I have ever seen. It is clearly a poured bar while other 1/2 kilo bars are machined/extruded.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Someone said it could be a prototype, and that got me thinking.
Why would E-hard make a prototype out of pure silver? The bar clearly doesn't appear to be silver, at least from the pictures, but the seller has a very good reputation and is extremely knowledgeable, so i can't imagine him not weighing it, or testing it before offering it. So that's probably a void thought.
Someone else brought up the serial number.
OGIM is correct about serial numbers. The number itself may not mean the number bar of production, but until this can be verified, it is a concern.
I dont know...all I know is that I would not have paid that much for something that raised some red flags. But I guess anything thatmay be a one of a kind would get that scrupulous attention.
The last item I listed, there were four bidders who were willing to pay more than it was worth.
As the bidding progressed, I said to myself "there is no way in he11 it is worth that much".
When I received good payment, I concluded that the bidders must have had their own rationale.
I did not conclude they were in collusion. Why would they collude to pay more than the item could be replaced for?