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1793 chain cent real on not

PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
A customer wants to know if this is the real deal?
I have my ?,
The 9 in the date looks off.

image

image
the weight is 13.5 grams

Thank in advance
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


Comments

  • droopyddroopyd Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭
    Signs point to "no."
    Me at the Springfield coin show:
    image
    60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,673 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't tell a whole lot from the pics, and I don't have my books with me, but the overall appearance
    looks suspicious.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was hoping that PCGS or someone with more experience than myself would chime in.
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS will chime in after you submit it to them. image For a coin potentially worth more than $10,000, it is worth a submission fee to find out.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    really would like larger images. can't enlarge these without losing detail.

    there are only 5 possibilities

    can't be the NC, wrong position of liberty
    not S-1 as that is the Ameri - variety
    only comes close to matching S-2--------------------------
    not S-3 wrong date position
    not S-4 as wrong date position and no dot after 3

    there are many features that seem right but it is the few that are off that makes this coin concerning.

    i'm not going to go any further based on the images as it is too close to conjecture for such a possibly valuable coin. at this point i am 50/50
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Could it be an electrotype? Can we get better pics including the edge?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would say cast copy or electro type. I do not like the surfaces and what looks to a gray spot in the chain, which could be a hole in the electro plating.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BigMooseBigMoose Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭
    Its a Sheldon-2, but, as Bill Jones stated, its probably an electrotype.
    TomT-1794

    Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the gray spot is not on the coin it must be on the scanning surface.
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Its a Sheldon-2, but, as Bill Jones stated, its probably an electrotype. >>



    When I first suggested that it might be an electrotype, I requested better pics including the edge. If it is an electrotype there should be a seam or evidence of a seam having been removed on the edge or at the juction where the edge meets the rim. In hand this coin wouldn't be that hard to evaluate but those pics are not that detailed. I'm heavily leaning toward calling this coin a fake.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thing I will take it to the PAN show in Oct. where Tom R. will be there.

    I think he will be able to tell with the coin in hand.
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I thing I will take it to the PAN show in Oct. where Tom R. will be there.

    I think he will be able to tell with the coin in hand. >>



    What does the edge look like? Any evidence of a seam?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,758 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I thing I will take it to the PAN show in Oct. where Tom R. will be there.

    I think he will be able to tell with the coin in hand. >>



    What does the edge look like? Any evidence of a seam? >>



    Do not forget about the "drop in electros" that duplicate the real edge device with vines and bars.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,673 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Do not forget about the "drop in electros" that duplicate the real edge device with vines and bars >>


    I'm not familiar with those, Bill - do you have any more info about this?
    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Do not forget about the "drop in electros" that duplicate the real edge device with vines and bars >>


    I'm not familiar with those, Bill - do you have any more info about this? >>



    As I alluded to in an earlier post, you need to also check the juncture of the rim and edge. One shell is a surface of the coin and the other shell is the other surface plus the complete edge. A real coin is pressed into wax and the impression is coated with a conductive powder such as graphite and this material is electroplated with copper to create a shell. Once the shells are completed they are fitted together with a lead or other base metal core and the seam is removed by polishing or electroplating to hide the seam.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,673 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ok, so that is where the 'drop in' comes from - fitting them together?
    I'd never heard that part before - thanks.


    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,800 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>ok, so that is where the 'drop in' comes from - fitting them together?
    I'd never heard that part before - thanks. >>



    That is correct. Electrotypes have been around for a long time and were even made by museums of their rare coins for collectors as replicas rather that any intent to fool anyone. Many were made as uniface examples to prevent deception by future owners. Some of the older electrotypes have collector value and sometimes appear in coin auctions as electrotypes. One of the best tests to check for an electrotype is the ring test. Since it wouldn't be struck from a solid planchet it will have a dull thud rather than a ring. Of course, an examination for a seam under high magnification is the best authentication technique.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,758 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Do not forget about the "drop in electros" that duplicate the real edge device with vines and bars >>


    I'm not familiar with those, Bill - do you have any more info about this? >>



    The usual electrotype involves fitting two sides together with a base metal core to give the piece something close to the proper weight. These pieces will have a seam around the edge that might be removed. A "drop-in" electrotype has one side that is like a cup with the edge on it. The other side is mounted into the cup so that you can get the proper edge with no seam. The seam is around the outside of the surface area of the coin and easier to conceal.

    There was a drop-in electrotype offered at an EAC auction four or five years ago that was offered as what it was, a copy. The piece was truly stunning, and it brought a very high price at the time, I think over $1,000. These things are very dangerous. Years ago I think PCGS got fooled on a Wreath cent of this type and had to buy it back. The Chain piece that I mentioned in the EAC auction was far, far more convincing than the piece that started this thread.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

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