Thoughts about the "odd size bars" collector base

nibanny

Few weeks ago I listed a Half Kilo Johnson Matthey bar. It did it to test the water and see how much it could bring (silver was in the $30 range if I recall correctly).
The starting bid was pretty high but it eventually sold. Though this is not the topic of my thread.

For what I saw in my little experience with PM, this bar is pretty scarce (am I wrong?). I was surprised that, within the huge eBay audience, it brought only 100 views to my auction and 10 watchers.

Does anyone can share some number about listing on eBay of really scarce/rare bars?

MM

OPA

To me, the majority of bars weighing more than 10 oz, including JM, are strictly bullion bars and I would only pay the going premium above melt, that the dealers charge for common kilo bars.

OnlyGoldIsMoney

A few observations.

Engelhard commands higher prices than JM. Interest in other producers is spotty.

Larger bars don't capture the premiums paid for scarcer small poured Engelhard bars in the 1 oz, 2 oz, 3 oz, 4 oz and 7 oz sizes. If a scarcer type of 50 oz or 100 oz Engelhard came to market it might not command much above spot.

Despite some avid collectors the pool of collectors is shallow IMO.

The lack of reference books hinders the bar collecting hobby. Chronology and mintages are guesswork.

US Mint bars have a strong following but I don't have a good handle on those bars and or their collector base.

dolomite

<< <i>Despite some avid collectors the pool of collectors is shallow IMO.

The lack of reference books hinders the bar collecting hobby. >>



Precisely correct. Given the absence of reference books, one's pursuit of knowledge relies upon the conversant pillars of seasoned collectors.

This information is often closely held and either shared by grace or rewarded through genuine rapport.

Engelhard rarities have come into their own in the past year. I believe they, and other rare pours, to a lesser extent, will continue to demand solid bids at auction.

1970SilverArt

<< <i>
The lack of reference books hinders the bar collecting hobby. Chronology and mintages are guesswork.

>>



I have to agree with this because, for example, the only reference books for silver art bars are the Archie Kidd silver art bar guidebooks that are usually hard to find and can be expensive when found on ebay or Amazon or elsewhere online. During my earlier years of collecting silver art bars, the lack of availability of reference books has been a challenge to me and before I bought my first Archie Kidd book, I had to do most of my research online to get an idea of what I had.

JCMhouston

I think the "collector" base is around 12 people. Sure lots of people think they are cool, and will pay 4-5% over melt for them, but that's about it. Very few pay way over melt or vaue them as anything special.

Justacommeman

I know plenty high of profile "odd size bar" collectors that are also dealers. They put them away in their own collections. This area of collecting has a big potential upside .MJ

NumbersUsacom

<< <i>I think the "collector" base is around 12 people. Sure lots of people think they are cool, and will pay 4-5% over melt for them, but that's about it. Very few pay way over melt or vaue them as anything special. >>



You obviously haven't shopped on Ebay the past couple of years. Check out all the completed sales and try bidding on some of those odd or out of the ordinary old pour bars. Some of those high BIN's that I figure will be there forever.... go figure, when I check back on them, somebody's snapped them up.

calleocho

I dont know how big the collector base for bar collectors is ...but what i do know is that is growing.

PerryHall

I avoid paying more than a small premium for any silver bar that I buy since I'm more interested in buying silver bullion rather than a rare collectible. My biggest concern is that as the collectible bars carry larger and larger premiums it will become a target of counterfeiters. With the high premiums over melt, the counterfeiters can afford to use real silver of proper weight and fineness to produce false bars and still make a healthy profit from the collector premium. Most of these bars have very simple designs and it wouldn't be difficult to make an undetectable copy.

OPA

<< <i>Most of these bars have very simple designs and it wouldn't be difficult to make an undetectable copy. >>





Caveat Emptor

dolomite

While a coin is more difficult to reproduce, our recent influx of fake prospectors comes to mind. These were carefully manufactured and suckered many, including myself, but upon close study reveal several glaring dissimilarities. I'm confident the Engelhard collector base is aware of this possible danger and will remain vigilant as prices continue to escalate.

I don't believe they will be more accurately reproduced than any other rare bar as United Stated Assay or early Spanish ingots. It may appear relatively simple to reproduce these pieces. However, given the precise dimensions of Engelhard's original cast iron molds, stamping character and difficulty of patina application, the best forgers will have a difficult task. Yes, as technology improves we will eventually see brilliant reproductions to market and when this happens, the numismatic coin community will have cause for equal alarm.

There is an excellent dissertation on this exact subject entitled "How the West was Faked" which documents the nefarious John Ford Jr. and is a must read for any serious collector.