Disappointed with a grading service

kevinj

I used one grading service alot during the 1990s because they would attribute many more die varieties than the other grading services.

I submitted several coins at the ANA in Philadelphia to them and was extremely disappointed in the results.

One coin in particular, a 1883 Indian cent, which was originally in a MS65RD holder for that service.
I wanted to take full photos of the coin, I removed the coin from the holder and saved the insert.
After photographing, I stored the coin away in my safety deposit box and left it there for several years.
I submitted the coin with the insert to have it slabbed by them.

They graded the coin as a MS63RB.
The coin has almost no marks. In my opinion it has its original red/orange luster, the same that it had when it was in a MS65RD holder.

Have the grading standards changed that much that a MS65RD 10 years ago is today a MS63RB?
When I spoke with a rep from them regarding this, he suggested that the people years ago were a different crew than there today.
I know grading is just an opinion and subjective, but in my opinion, one would think that there should not be such a dramatic difference from the same company.

I submitted a dozen or so Barber quarters for grading, several of which I believed to be uncirculated. None were graded uncirculated.

Have others submitted coins and seen simular results? Are the standards changing from 10 years ago?

Thanks
Kevin

bolivarshagnasty

Kevin, Probably need to read the forum rules. Copper can change state depending on the environment. Did you have before photos to
compare it to? BTW, Refer to my MPL book often. Thanks!

messydesk

Regarding the Indian cent, probably everyone has a coin they've submitted after a crackout and has received a different grade, regardless of the grading service.

Regarding the Barber quarters, I have never submitted a group of coins you have thought to be uncirculated, so I don't have experience in that regard.

And, yeah, this isn't the place to rag on other grading services.

JRocco

Red copper is better left in older slabs. It remains more stable. I would not crack out a red copper coin in any slab if I wanted it to go back into a red slab.

dragon

<<< Have the grading standards changed that much that a MS65RD 10 years ago is today a MS63RB? >>>


No they have not.






<<< I know grading is just an opinion and subjective, but in my opinion, one would think that there should not be such a dramatic difference from the same company. >>>


While your Indian cent example is dramatic, all the various grading companies play musical chairs with both grades and designations all the time depending on when the coin was submitted. I'm sure most everyone here has had experiences with coins going up, going down, graded to no grade, not crossing then upgraded, and everything in between.

Wabbit2313

I am not sure why anyone would crack out a $1000.00 coin just to take a picture, only to turn it into a 100 dollar coin??? Something seems wrong here.

Cheers!

kevinj

<< <i>I am not sure why anyone would crack out a $1000.00 coin just to take a picture, only to turn it into a 100 dollar coin??? Something seems wrong here.
Cheers! >>



I write books, 40 coin books to date.

Doing full photos of the obverse and reverse is a problem with some slabs because of the glare off the plastic, shadows of the holders. You get a much better shot with a raw coin.

My bad, lesson learned the hard way.

Kevin

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>I am not sure why anyone would crack out a $1000.00 coin just to take a picture, only to turn it into a 100 dollar coin??? Something seems wrong here.
Cheers! >>



I write books, 40 coin books to date.

Doing full photos of the obverse and reverse is a problem with some slabs because of the glare off the plastic, shadows of the holders. You get a much better shot with a raw coin.

My bad, lesson learned the hard way.

Kevin >>



Some of the photographers on these boards do a great job with in-slab photography. If you need more photos in the future, you might want to check their portfolios to see if they can provide the quality of photos you want. If you really want a raw coin photo, you can always cross to PCGS and request a TrueView.

Unknown

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guitarwes

To overstate the obvious, grading is very subjective. With Red/Red-Brown+ copper it's very hairy. Even if submitted twice in 1 month with the same graders at the same grading service you're likely to get a slightly different grade.

Wolf359

Welcome to the grading game. You were probably maxed out at MS65RD. You'll just have to keep sending it back until you get that grade again. If ever.

SeattleSlammer

Without before and after pics it's really impossible to fault ANACS.
As has been mentioned, once the coin is cracked out it'll likely have a whole different group of eyeballs looking at it.

kevinj

All good points, thanks

When the certified slabbed grading started back in the 1980s, one of the goals was to provide a means to get a third party opinion of a grade and authenticate as genuine.

But, if the determination of the grade of a coin is that subjective, and will deviate that greatly so that the grade you purchased at is in fact greatly lower in grade and value than a normal reasonable experienced grader would believe it to be, than in my opinion, what benefit is there to grading services? Are we not back to square one in determining a grade? All the more reason to improve you skills yourself in grading obviously.

Kevin

Caleb

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I am not sure why anyone would crack out a $1000.00 coin just to take a picture, only to turn it into a 100 dollar coin??? Something seems wrong here.
Cheers! >>



I write books, 40 coin books to date.

Doing full photos of the obverse and reverse is a problem with some slabs because of the glare off the plastic, shadows of the holders. You get a much better shot with a raw coin.

My bad, lesson learned the hard way.

Kevin >>



Some of the photographers on these boards do a great job with in-slab photography. If you need more photos in the future, you might want to check their portfolios to see if they can provide the quality of photos you want. If you really want a raw coin photo, you can always cross to PCGS and request a TrueView. >>



If he is taking pictures to be published in a book he is doing, then for copyright purposes he may want to use his own photos.

Sorry to hear about the downgrade, were they right the first time or the current holder? If you feel the coin was graded right before you cracked it out, youi can always resubmit it to give the company a second chance to get it right!

Kove

Posting a Guess the Grade using the out-of-slab photos could draw out some educated opinions on which grade is closer to correct, MS 65RD or MS 63RB.

BillJones

<< <i>Red copper is better left in older slabs. It remains more stable. I would not crack out a red copper coin in any slab if I wanted it to go back into a red slab. >>



Amen.

I am no fan of red copper, and I've been a collector for more than 50 years. The few pieces of red copper that I have or currently own were kept in lucite holders before slabs and stayed in the slabs after the TPG began.

kevinj, you need to have before and after pictures to make you case, but I will say this. With a copper coin that grades MS-65, Red, all it takes is bit of mellowing of the red plus a couple of black or worse yet green spots in the wrong place to knock points off the grade. The problem for graders is sometimes its hard to tell if a coin is naturally red or been very skillfully dipped to get the color. Many dipped coins re-tone over a peroids ranging from a few months to a few years. It's hard to predict.

Also if you use a safe deposit box, the moisture in the vault can get you as well as changes in temperature. Like a house, I'm sure that some banks let their temperatures go up in the summer and down in the winter when they are closed. This can do bad stuff to your coins, especially the red copper ones.

messydesk

<< <i>If he is taking pictures to be published in a book he is doing, then for copyright purposes he may want to use his own photos. >>


Granting a license to publish in a book if credit is given is not an issue with me, and I doubt it is with most other photographers.

291fifth

The moment you cracked the coin out the previously assigned grade became meaningless.

Grading is nothing more than an opinion and opinions vary widely among graders.

RYK

<< <i>Posting a Guess the Grade using the out-of-slab photos could draw out some educated opinions on which grade is closer to correct, MS 65RD or MS 63RB. >>


or it could have little or no value.

georgiacop50

<< <i>When I spoke with a rep from them regarding this, he suggested that the people years ago were a different crew than there today. >>



I think this may well be key.

The TPG you used has seen some dramatic changes since leaving the Amos Press digs.

LeeBone

I have never been dissapointed with a TPG....

MAJOR

Staircoins

<< <i>

<< <i>When I spoke with a rep from them regarding this, he suggested that the people years ago were a different crew than there today. >>



I think this may well be key.

The TPG you used has seen some dramatic changes since leaving the Amos Press digs. >>

+1

GrumpyEd

This is why a lot of collectors buy RBs with nice color or almost red.
Less worry about opinions changing or coins changing and no longer being red.

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>Posting a Guess the Grade using the out-of-slab photos could draw out some educated opinions on which grade is closer to correct, MS 65RD or MS 63RB. >>


or it could have little or no value. >>



Yup. You'll get at least a dozen different opinions. Rick Snow and Charmy are active members here and specialize in this series and their opinion carries a lot of weight.

kevinj

Years ago I took a dozen or so uncirculated two cent pieces certified by grading service A,
sent them to grading service B. On average, there was a two point increase in the grades returned by grading service B.
That is a big financial difference for the same coins.

I was planning on showing the coins to Stewart, as in my opinion, I have never met anyone who could better grade coins.
It is a good idea to include Charmy and Rick on the 1883 Indian to see what they say.

I remember a few years ago, computerized grading was attempted, first tried with Morgans. I believed it failed.
Can't teach a computer the concept of eye appeal. Eye appeal in my opinion is one of the key factors in grading. What is appealing to
one individual might not be to another. For example, I hate most toning. Some people love it. I have seen one grading service
grade tone coins higher than the same coin graded by a different service.

That the same service will grade the same coin differently sometimes when submitted is sad, especially for higher end coins where
there is a large value difference at the different grades.

Thanks
Kevin

lcoopie

don't you think that your reason for taking it out was a mistake????

devious

<< <i>The moment you cracked the coin out the previously assigned grade became meaningless.

Grading is nothing more than an opinion and opinions vary widely among graders. >>



Quoted for posterity. There's something about what you wrote that has me laughing...loudly!

BUFFNIXX

You have to realize that once you crack out a coin it has to be regraded again by human beings. Why would you think that you would be gauranteed the same grade as before? I had a friend do this once many years ago. He had a rare Washington quarter doubled die that had been graded MS65 by one of the famous grading services. He cracked it out, dipped it to remove some spotting that he did not like, and then sent it in with the insert. It came back as an MS60. I can remember him going nuts about the five point drop in grade. He sent it back to this grading service, complained loud and long, and they upped his grade to MS63!! Figure that one out. So much for their accurate concensus grading. Anyway, once you crack the coin out it is raw and there is no way to even associate the grading insert with the unslabbed coin. The problem was yours and yours alone. Sorry!!

silverpop

opinions will always differ from yours that is part of life and you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on griping isn't going to help the issue much

learn that opinions differ and you will be fine

kevinj

Even if it can be argued that the coin toned from a RED to RB, there was no changes to the surfaces, such as marks and such,
which should mean that it went from a 65RD to 65RB.

I understand that my opinion might be different from the grading services.

I understand and have witnessed that for uncirculated grades, the different grading services might have a different opinion as to the grade of the same coin.

What is more difficult to understand and accept is that the same grading service can grade the same coin dramatically different.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having third party grading services if there is no consistency. Seems likes its back in the stone age, whereas the seller would argue a higher grade (here, backed by a TPG service), and the buyer needs to understand the norm for that grade
and argue the opposite if they see the coin is overgraded.
Also means that sight unseen coins because they are certified is a false pretense.
Also means that the value guide based upon certified grades is more of a guide rather than absolute, whereas there will be deviations based upon the grader.

In many of the books I have written, I have always stated that buy the coin, not the plastic around it, and learn to grade a series before spending alot of money on it.

kevinj

<< <i>opinions will always differ from yours that is part of life and you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on griping isn't going to help the issue much learn that opinions differ and you will be fine >>



I consider it important to understand the issue, see if others have had the same experience, and share that with collectors in the books
that I write.

If I can throw caution to the wind to a reader, and they are more careful and do not just buy the coin because of the grade, than that is a good thing.

If someone gets burned because they bought a certified coin which was overgraded, and they cannot sell it because it is a much lower grade, then they might get fustrated and leave the hobby.

Griping might not help, but I believe educating people does help.

Kevin

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Also means that the value guide based upon certified grades is more of a guide rather than absolute, whereas there will be deviations based upon the grader. >>

Unless you have a sight-unseen offer to buy, published values are all guides, regardless of where you find them. No printed price is absolute.

ajman

I have been collecting for about 25+ years and the one thing I have learned with the TPG's is, "Don't play the crack-out game". The only thing I will do is submit the coin for a reholder. It's safer that way and it won't screw up the TPG's grade guarantee.