Fake gold bars turn up in Manhattan

JamesM

Link


Interesting read, it was informative to see the photos of the bars.

piecesofme

"That is a sophisticated operation"

Not really if one knows what they're doing. Just another reminder to be vigiliant when buying even with someone you've done business with before as the article says.
This is why 90% junk silver coins are and always will be what i like to deal in the most.

MsMorrisine

MTB is an Authorized Purchaser from the US Mint.

FullCameo

Should one drill into a bar at 10oz and over? I would.

LukeMarshall

Seems to me like they are playing off the fact that it is a pamp suisse "art bar"

I'm sure most people in possession of a ten ounce pamp don't want to deface it to see if it's real or not.

Very tricky...

I'm wondering if a bar with such a thin skin of gold like that could fool an XRF scanner?

morgansforever

I'll stick with AGE's and ASE's.

PerryHall

<< <i>Should one drill into a bar at 10oz and over? I would. >>



Drill into it and you may have trouble selling a bar.

piecesofme

Drill into it and you may have trouble selling a bar

I wonder what prompted the buyer in the article to drill into a $18k bar that looks like a knock off Pamp and they are in NY? Think about it.

PerryHall

<< <i>"That is a sophisticated operation"

Not really if one knows what they're doing. Just another reminder to be vigiliant when buying even with someone you've done business with before as the article says.
This is why 90% junk silver coins are and always will be what i like to deal in the most. >>



Considering the hardness and very high melting point of tungsten and the very thin foil of gold covering the tungsten, that bar was not created in someone's garage. It was a sophisticated operation and your can expect to see many more in the marketplace in the future. The best way to buy gold now is AGE's and other gold coins.

piecesofme

The best way to buy gold now is AGE's and other gold coins

Or not buy physical imo, buy paper gold and just trade the GLD. You open yourself up for market manipulation, but you will never buy a fake bar and be out $1800 that way. If you lose $1800 trading it, it's your own fault then anyway.

PerryHall

<< <i>The best way to buy gold now is AGE's and other gold coins

Or not buy physical imo, buy paper gold and just trade the GLD. You open yourself up for market manipulation, but you will never buy a fake bar and be out $1800 that way. If you lose $1800 trading it, it's your own fault then anyway. >>



Buying paper is not buying gold. I just don't trust paper and I'm sure the vast majority of posters here will agree with me. I like pre-1933 Saints and Liberty double eagles that have been slabbed by a top tier grading service. The common dates can be bought near melt in the lower MS grades.

derryb

<< <i>Buying paper is not buying gold. I just don't trust paper and I'm sure the vast majority of posters here will agree with me. I like pre-1933 Saints and Liberty double eagles that have been slabbed by a top tier grading service. The common dates can be bought near melt in the lower MS grades. >>



There are risk with physical and with paper metal. In addition to counterfeiting there always remains the risk of confiscation or higher transaction taxes on your physical holdings. Paper can be a good trading/investing tool if the holder has full control of the account and it can be converted to dollars with the push of a button or a quick phone call. Physical has its purpose and paper has a different purpose. My preference is metal ETFs in an online self-managed brokerage account. I pay $7 to convert over $500K of paper to dollars and can do it in less than 30 seconds. I cannot do this with my physical holdings. If the bottom fell out on PMs tomorrow, most physical holders would not be able to sell quick enough without taking a beating on actual price realized. I do not support holding physical metal in an IRA. Note that IRA brokerage accounts do have trading restrictions that involve "settled funds." Before trading any type paper in an IRA be sure you are clear on what this means.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>Should one drill into a bar at 10oz and over? I would. >>



Drill into it and you may have trouble selling a bar. >>



Wouldn't it be simpler to try and bend the bar instead of drilling into it? Pure gold is relatively soft [Mohs hardness 2.5 vs 7.5 for tungsten] and should bend fairly easy.

mrearlygold

The premiums for certified common date authentic US Gold coins is so small it's almost silly.

PerryHall

<< <i>The premiums for certified common date authentic US Gold coins is so small it's almost silly. >>



Bingo! It's a great way to buy bullion and a better way than buying bars that may or may not be fake.

mkman123

Timbuk3

Thanks for the info !!!

jdimmick

A freind of mine bought 2 10 oz gold bars last month at a show, I called him and told him about these, he got quite concened. I am sure his are okay, but its makes you nervous nonetheless.

CaptHenway

<< <i>A freind of mine bought 2 10 oz gold bars last month at a show, I called him and told him about these, he got quite concened. I am sure his are okay, but its makes you nervous nonetheless. >>



All the more reason to buy from somebody established in a location.

piecesofme

A freind of mine bought 2 10 oz gold bars last month at a show, I called him and told him about these, he got quite concened. I am sure his are okay, but its makes you nervous nonetheless.

Sham on you for almost giving your friend a heart attack
Just kidding of course. I think we've all had an apprehensive moment at some point in our pm purchasing endeavors.

calleocho

why do the pics in the articles shows two different serial numbers?

1jester

The foremost authority on the gold market in the world, Jim Sinclair, has this to say about the story:

"My opinion is this is disinformation. The diamond district in NYC is Hassidic Jewish.

Nobody cons those guys."

derryb

A total of ten bars reported so far.

JamesMurray

<< <i>The foremost authority on the gold market in the world, Jim Sinclair, has this to say about the story:

"My opinion is this is disinformation. The diamond district in NYC is Hassidic Jewish.

Nobody cons those guys."

>>



Im not seeing it as disinformation , it speaks volumes loud and clear.

1jester

I'm assuming that Jim Sinclair has more information about the district (buyers and sellers), the business and basically everything else, than I do. Thus I trust his intuition (or other intel). I don't think he said that the fake bars don't exist; what I gleaned from that comment and from reading him for years is that there might be an ulterior motive for this information to come to light at this time and in the manner it was presented.

roadrunner

<< <i>The best way to buy gold now is AGE's and other gold coins

Or not buy physical imo, buy paper gold and just trade the GLD. You open yourself up for market manipulation, but you will never buy a fake bar and be out $1800 that way. If you lose $1800 trading it, it's your own fault then anyway. >>



GLD not manipulated? I wouldn't take that bet. There are way too many holes in the GLD prospectus. What would happen to the price of GLD overnight if it were found that bars were being used to cover gold contracts outside of GLD? The big fish would get paid out. Little fish would go begging just like MFGlobal customers. There are very few brokerages out there without risk in today's otc derivative's trading climate. One good black swan event and your brokerage might go down, even if they apparently were doing everything right. You won't be out $1800...but potentially your entire trading account. There isn't a sure thing in this game, not even being bullion holders.

If that 10 oz bar was just skinned with gold foil there should have been several ways to detect the fake, the simplest which would be specific gravity. Then you'd also have ultransonic sound velocity and conductivity verifications. The 2 bars have diff serial #'s because supposedly one of them in genuine bar used for comparison.

derryb

JS is usually right on the money - probably a scare tactic. Why would a dealer go public, he just ruined all of his future gold business. If you're gonna try to pass counterfeits you don't do it with an expert, not unless you want them to be discovered.

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>The best way to buy gold now is AGE's and other gold coins

Or not buy physical imo, buy paper gold and just trade the GLD. You open yourself up for market manipulation, but you will never buy a fake bar and be out $1800 that way. If you lose $1800 trading it, it's your own fault then anyway. >>



GLD not manipulated? I wouldn't take that bet. There are way too many holes in the GLD prospectus. What would happen to the price of GLD overnight if it were found that bars were being used to cover gold contracts outside of GLD? The big fish would get paid out. Little fish would go begging just like MFGlobal customers. There are very few brokerages out there without risk in today's otc derivative's trading climate. One good black swan event and your brokerage might go down, even if they apparently were doing everything right. You won't be out $1800...but potentially your entire trading account. There isn't a sure thing in this game, not even being bullion holders.

If that 10 oz bar was just skinned with gold foil there should have been several ways to detect the fake, the simplest which would be specific gravity. Then you'd also have ultransonic sound velocity and conductivity verifications. The 2 bars have diff serial #'s because supposedly one of them in genuine bar used for comparison. >>



Gold has a specific gravity of 19.32.
Tungsten has a specific gravity of 19.3.

10 ounce bars are very difficult to do a specific gravity test on. You could not do it precisely enough to tell the two metals apart.

roadrunner

As far as the properties of tungsten versus gold, they are similar. But there are important differences, per the Ron Paul blog at dailypaul.com. In coins, there is a difference in the ring. The speed of sound thru tungsten is different from that with gold (as is detectible with a cheap ultrasound scanner). Tungsten is very hard and brittle (with a higher melting point) while gold is soft and pliable (on a hardness scale, it is alleged that talc at 1 means gold at 2.5, tungsten at 7.5 and diamonds at 10.0).

The atomic weight of gold is said to be 196.96 versus 183.86 for tungsten. Gold allegedly has a specific gravity of 19.32 and tungsten of 19.25. Precision measuring and weighing devices (which are now available all over the world) could measure a bar and easily calculate its exact volume and weight for either gold or for tungsten. These devices would immediately detect tungsten bars in contrast to gold bars. ....taken from link below.

Link

I checked one periodic table and they listed the sg of W at 19.30. But it would take a fairly sophisticated device to pick up on that difference. The other checks would more easily
detect the tungsten. A cheap sound velocity detector could be picked up for a few hundred bucks. The industrial versions cost a few thousand dollars. But any minute air gap between
layers would be picked up very easily.

derryb

Design/Purchase your tungsten plated bars and coins here!

roadrunner

<< <i>Design/Purchase your tungsten plated bars and coins here! >>



Interesting. We can add the distilled water and mangetism tests to the mix.