Trade dollar experts--1878-CC sold on eBay-real or not?

rec78

Hello, I saw this 1878-CC trade dollar on ebay. The guy says he found it in the bottom of a fish tank?? I did not post this earlier in case I am wrong-then someone got a bargain, but I don't think so.
I do not think it is genuine. Did anyone here buy this?
The weight is too far off tolerance for the wear. He says it weight 26.5 g. The coin is not that worn to go below 27 g.. There are some real good fake trade dollars around. I think this is one of them. It just does not look right. The hair does not appear to be correct for one thing-but that could possibly be just bad photography.
1878-CC trade dollar fake??

I could be wrong-What do you think? Thanks, Bob

crypto79

I would have to go back and look up the 3-4 mint mark locations die pairs for the date to be sure but it looks like a gen cracked out AT problem coin to me. Still not the kind I would ever buy

mbogoman

Besides the concocted story, the thing I didn't like about that one was the lack of a rim on the obverse bottom half.

BillJones

The toning artifical for sure. Beyond that I'm not a Trade Dollar expert, but I would not get involved with this if I were looking for one.

ziggy29

Bogus toning. It *looks* like it could be real to me, but that said I wouldn't touch a raw Trade Dollar with a 100-foot pole.

crypto79

mint mark doesnt pan out form a quick lookup, fake but most likely silver

stealer

I remember seeing the coin earlier and my first impression was genuine. I never really gave much thought to the weight difference since who knows how calibrated the seller's scale is.

braddick

Look at what this seller has sold via his feedback for a better understanding/answer.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
strike 1: all other coins sold are china
strike 2: no items sold in months and then one major key coin outta nowhere
strike 3: sell price on a very desirable cc trade dollar 1/5 the value

i'll look over my images here in a bit after my errands
.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>mint mark doesnt pan out form a quick lookup, fake but most likely silver >>



If so, that's one of the best fakes yet.

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>mint mark doesnt pan out form a quick lookup, fake but most likely silver >>



If so, that's one of the best fakes yet. >>



Most common tilted up off set over Dollar
Centered high under grains
Rarest far right CC over Dollar


Pretty sure these are the only 3 known Rev Dies on the issue of 97k with half melted.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>i'll look over my images here in a bit after my errands. >>



so far it is not matching the 3 reverse images i have.

the ebay listing has a wide cc, at least compared to the authentic images i have and none of the others are irregularly spaced

my first impression was i did not like the look of the feathers of the eagle but more work is required it seems, arghh
.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
ok, i'll issue a challenge to anyone willing to accept.

find just 1 other authentic trade dollar with this spacing for the base of the eagle's neck

there are other places throughout the bird, but we'll just do this one

MsMorrisine

I don't know the dies, nor the series even, but the head looks like something out of an old Japanese monster movie.


weird looking.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
well we are up to 4 reverse dies. i'm still workin' though

AUandAG

It's a fake base on the weight alone. I presume, like most, he has a pocket digital scale that
is reasonably accurate. The rims are bad. Dang good fake.

bob

RichieURich

<< <i>.
strike 1: all other coins sold are china
strike 2: no items sold in months and then one major key coin outta nowhere
strike 3: sell price on a very desirable cc trade dollar 1/5 the value
>>





Strike 4: previous sale of an 1878-CC Trade dollar for $280.
Strike 5: previous sale of an 1878-CC Trade dollar for $400.
Strike 6: previous sale of an 1878-CC Trade dollar for $114.50.

Need I say more?

AUandAG

We don't need his ilk on Ebay.

Reported as intentionally selling counterfeits as supported by his past sales.

bob

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>

<< <i>.
strike 1: all other coins sold are china
strike 2: no items sold in months and then one major key coin outta nowhere
strike 3: sell price on a very desirable cc trade dollar 1/5 the value
>>





Strike 4: previous sale of an 1878-CC Trade dollar for $280.
Strike 5: previous sale of an 1878-CC Trade dollar for $400.
Strike 6: previous sale of an 1878-CC Trade dollar for $114.50.

Need I say more? >>



no no no

stealer

If it is indeed fake, that is a scarily good fake.

stealer

<< <i>.
ok, i'll issue a challenge to anyone willing to accept.

find just 1 other authentic trade dollar with this spacing for the base of the eagle's neck

there are other places throughout the bird, but we'll just do this one

>>


Lance, to take you up on your challenge, here is one of mine raw:

I am confident my coin is authentic and I believe the gaps in the eagle are resultant of die wear.



And here's the obverse for sake of discussion...

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Lance, to take you up on your challenge, here is one of mine raw: >>



ya they sure do match up. appreciate someone finding a comp.

i'll give your coin a go over before i consider the challenge accepted

i'm still not satisfied i fully authenticated the coin in question.

although the mm position quantification sure makes a compelling argument.

i'm willing to make a bet though. most likely either that gap below the eagles neck/above shoulder match either makes the coin in question authentic or it makes yours not authentic.

rarely do those kind of things match up from authentic to non-authentic coins. possibly, just rare.
.

stealer

<< <i>

<< <i>Lance, to take you up on your challenge, here is one of mine raw: >>



ya they sure do match up. appreciate someone finding a comp.

i'll give your coin a go over before i consider the challenge accepted

i'm still not satisfied i fully authenticated the coin in question.

although the mm position quantification sure makes a compelling argument.

i'm willing to make a bet though. most likely either that gap below the eagles neck/above shoulder match either makes the coin in question authentic or it makes yours not authentic.

rarely do those kind of things match up from authentic to non-authentic coins. possibly, just rare.
. >>


Man you are tough to please . Currently searching HA archives...

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Man you are tough to please . Currently searching HA archives... >>



this is a good opportunity to say:

those that do things dishonestly do so getting half as much for twice the effort.

meaning: however hard we are working to figure out the authentication/attribution, they are doubling our efforts to fool us ><
.

stealer

Overlay with this HA coin.

Looks like you missed a reverse MM placement Lance



Note that the HA coin is slightly tilted to the left.

Another overlay to show MM positioning. Note the HA overlay image's lines are slanted to accommodate for tilt.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Looks like you missed a reverse MM placement Lance >>



good job. i'll integrate that in with the other images.

technically i hadn't missed it since i wasn't finished

just have many other things to do. spent a good portion of the day contacting buyers from ebay about their items being counterfeit. arrrgghh

how does that phrase go? : If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action.

guess i am naive enough to believe that

anyhow, thanks again for that reverse image. if you are kind enough to supply me a link so that i may use the entire obv/rev images it will be appreciated
.

MsMorrisine

yeah, I'd like to see if the HA eagle looks like mothra, too.

stealer

Here is the rest of the coin: Link

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>yeah, I'd like to see if the HA eagle looks like mothra, too. >>





can't we go just one conversation without something bringing up mothra? i have enough nightmares about aliens and monsters as it is, sheesh
.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Here is the rest of the coin: Link >>



awe dangit. i had that image open earlier and closed it cuz i didn't wanna work on them anymore. and here it goes biting me in the bud. tx for the link
.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
and since i haven't said it yet (not that i recall) and it shouldn't go without saying. thanks to heritage for having such fantastic archives and fantastically searchable and also for not busting our &$^$^ for

using their images to make numismatics a safer place to play
.

tradedollarnut

In this day and age, I wouldn't use one single certified coin as prima fascia evidence of authenticity. We've seen too many fakes in holders and fake holders to use just one data point.

stealer

<< <i>In this day and age, I wouldn't use one single certified coin as prima fascia evidence of authenticity. We've seen too many fakes in holders and fake holders to use just one data point. >>


Valid concern, and to top that off it is just as likely that fakers could have used a coin with the same reverse die as their master coin for the faux dies.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>In this day and age, I wouldn't use one single certified coin as prima fascia evidence of authenticity. We've seen too many fakes in holders and fake holders to use just one data point. >>



i wasn't gonna say it but i was thinking it. i currently have a couple dozen examples i am working from. i will feel comfortable with around 5 separate coins for each position.

i've also updated my earlier images to include the the newest member to the tentative mm positioning thus far.

kinda fun having a blog-ish style thread
.

MilkmanDan

Speaking of fake trade dollars in holders, this one doesn't look right to me. If you can get past the corrosion or whatever that is, look at libs face and the obverse dentils.

AUandAG

<< <i>Speaking of fake trade dollars in holders, this one doesn't look right to me. If you can get past the corrosion or whatever that is, look at libs face and the obverse dentils. >>



I don't see what you see with the dentils. Seem normal, from perhaps a quite well worn
die. I think Anacs got it right.

bob

MilkmanDan

<< <i>

<< <i>Speaking of fake trade dollars in holders, this one doesn't look right to me. If you can get past the corrosion or whatever that is, look at libs face and the obverse dentils. >>



I don't see what you see with the dentils. Seem normal, from perhaps a quite well worn
die. I think Anacs got it right.

bob >>


Maybe it's just me but Liberty's face doesn't look right. Looking at the obverse dentils, the dentils from 10 to 12 are quite a bit shorter than 4-6. I've seen this occur rarely on genuine trade dollars but not to this degree. The picture is grainy but the coin just doesn't look right to me.

stealer

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Speaking of fake trade dollars in holders, this one doesn't look right to me. If you can get past the corrosion or whatever that is, look at libs face and the obverse dentils. >>



I don't see what you see with the dentils. Seem normal, from perhaps a quite well worn
die. I think Anacs got it right.

bob >>


Maybe it's just me but Liberty's face doesn't look right. Looking at the obverse dentils, the dentils from 10 to 12 are quite a bit shorter than 4-6. I've seen this occur rarely on genuine trade dollars but not to this degree. The picture is grainy but the coin just doesn't look right to me. >>


I agree that the dentils are quite abnormally different in length although I think it is accentuated by the slight angle at which the picture is taken. I think the corrosion and the angle also account for the funky looking face. IMO it is genuine and FWIW our host does send coins over to ANACS authenticators since they are highly regarded as the best in the business.

crypto79

<< <i>Speaking of fake trade dollars in holders, this one doesn't look right to me. If you can get past the corrosion or whatever that is, look at libs face and the obverse dentils. >>



I agree that coin sent all my red flags off and then I saw it was graded. I settled on that it didn't matter because I would never buy it buy it still looks fake to me to.