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1871 Seated Dollar

cameron12xcameron12x Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Thoughts on a technical grade?

image

Eye appeal?
«1

Comments

  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, I'll stick my neck out and start the ball rolling...VF25

    mbogoman

    Asesabi Lutho

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345
  • DUIGUYDUIGUY Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭
    XF45

    image
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."



    - Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Ok, I'll stick my neck out and start the ball rolling...VF25 >>


    Exactly my initial reaction....25

    Tom

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    35

    Reverse detail seems better than obverse
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
    VF20
  • AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭
    30 and nice and wholesome was my thought on seeing the photos.
  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    35 and I like it!!! Did someone say wholesome? image
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Anac's grade 1978.....................VF30/EF40

    2012 grade VF 30
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭
    vf35
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • RevDrBlimberRevDrBlimber Posts: 391
    VF 25. I just sent one in that had good detail and luster that I thought was a lock AU but a little cleaning. They said "XF details" at PCGS.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF 25.

    I'd check that upper drapery next to the shield for possible tooling. Could be nothing though.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • cameron12xcameron12x Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭


    << <i>VF 25. I just sent one in that had good detail and luster that I thought was a lock AU but a little cleaning. They said "XF details" at PCGS. >>

    Sorry to hear that.

    Does my example look cleaned or original?
  • FlatwoodsFlatwoods Posts: 4,246 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>VF 25.

    I'd check that upper drapery next to the shield for possible tooling. Could be nothing though. >>



    I agree with this. Nice coin with minimal marks compared to most. I really like it but that one area does look odd.
    I'd say 30-35.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like it's missing a couple of mint marks, but other than that a VF30 is what
    I'm thinking.

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No full liberty...so no way that coin better than a F-12...most likely a VG 10.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No full liberty...so no way that coin better than a F-12...most likely a VG 10. >>


    My first thought as well, although I'm inclined to call the coin a F15 given the nice overall details.
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Given the series..... 30-35 being weighted on 35

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    seated halves and dollars arent graded soley by the amount of LIBERTY on the shield.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    f-18 to vf-20.
    image
  • OldEastsideOldEastside Posts: 4,602 ✭✭✭✭✭
    when I first read the threads, I was likeimage
    and I did'nt wanna be first to say 15 to 20

    Steve

    Allthough its a nice pleasing coin with even wear overall
    Promote the Hobby
  • cameron12xcameron12x Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    image

    Grades assigned so far:

    25, 25, 45, 35, 20, 30, 35, 30, 35, 25, 25, 32.5, 30, 10, 15, 32.5, 19, 17.5

    That's quite a wide variance!

    My own thoughts is that it's no worse than VF-20 and no better than VF-30. Does that mean it really is VF-25? image

    How is LIBERTY used to grade this series? I believe the interpretation of that standard is driving the variances.

    Thoughts?
  • mbogomanmbogoman Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How is LIBERTY used to grade this series? I believe the interpretation of that standard is driving the variances. >>



    The amount of "LIBERTY" showing is greatly dependent on the quality of the strike. With a soft strike, LIBERTY is the first area to suffer...

    mbogoman

    Asesabi Lutho

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345
  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>VF 25.

    I'd check that upper drapery next to the shield for possible tooling. Could be nothing though. >>



    My thought also,could be old graffiti in the chest area.
    Trade $'s
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,845 ✭✭✭✭✭
    20 seems to be as good as it gets for this one

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>No full liberty...so no way that coin better than a F-12...most likely a VG 10. >>

    Seated dollars can't be graded with this technique -- their design causes the legend to wear faster than most of the other Seated coins (same is true for 20-centers and the early "no drapery" Seated type. I'd say VF-20 details.
  • AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Does my example look cleaned or original? >>



    If you notice that there is a "dark halo" around the devices, with lighter fields, it looks like something happened to lighten it a bit. In my opinion market acceptable, especially for a relatively low circ grade.
    I don't know enough to determine exactly what happened, could have been from circulation itself, soap and water, etc.
  • cameron12xcameron12x Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    Opinions for two other questions requested:

    1. Opinion on overall eye appeal for the perceived technical grade?
    2. Opinion on whether this example would "body bag" or grade if submitted?

    Thanks!
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>
    Does my example look cleaned or original? >>



    If you notice that there is a "dark halo" around the devices, with lighter fields, it looks like something happened to lighten it a bit. In my opinion market acceptable, especially for a relatively low circ grade.
    I don't know enough to determine exactly what happened, could have been from circulation itself, soap and water, etc. >>


    Not true. Dirt tends to build up around the devices naturally.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,749 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Anac's grade 1978.....................VF30/EF40

    2012 grade VF 30 >>



    ANACS did not grade coins in 1978. Nor did it have an apostrophe in it.

    Had it been submitted for grading in 1979, when we did begin grading, I might have called it a VF-20/25.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,749 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No full liberty...so no way that coin better than a F-12...most likely a VG 10. >>



    The obverse hub had distorted by the late dates so that the shield area was in too high a relief, and LIBERTY wore off before the rest of the coin fell below VF.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>
    Does my example look cleaned or original? >>



    If you notice that there is a "dark halo" around the devices, with lighter fields, it looks like something happened to lighten it a bit. In my opinion market acceptable, especially for a relatively low circ grade.
    I don't know enough to determine exactly what happened, could have been from circulation itself, soap and water, etc. >>


    Not true. Dirt tends to build up around the devices naturally. >>



    Agree. Thats why I said it could be from circulation itself. Seems pehaps to be just a bit too pronounced on this one. Or perhaps I am just too suspicious!
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭
    VF30
    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Anac's grade 1978.....................VF30/EF40

    2012 grade VF 30 >>



    ANACS did not grade coins in 1978. Nor did it have an apostrophe in it.

    Had it been submitted for grading in 1979, when we did begin grading, I might have called it a VF-20/25. >>



    You got to admit the 1978 was a good guess image

    I got to say in 1979 grading was looser than 20/25 gee, I am sorry about the spelling. ANACS mea cupa mea cupa a thousand times mea cupa.
  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The details are very close to 30, I'd go VF25 and a strong 25 at that.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is no way that coin makes a VF grade.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,845 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bidask:

    This example could possible be a low end VF- The mintage figures for the 1871 are among the highest for the series. This date often features a reverse that looks better than the obverse. The obverse details were not always as well defined as collectors expect.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    easily make a 1979 black and white photo VF 30, Color Photo
    1980s VF 25, small holder Vf 30, wide holder VF 30, yellow holder
    VF 35, Blue holder VF 30. Anacs no " ' " image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,749 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Anac's grade 1978.....................VF30/EF40

    2012 grade VF 30 >>



    ANACS did not grade coins in 1978. Nor did it have an apostrophe in it.

    Had it been submitted for grading in 1979, when we did begin grading, I might have called it a VF-20/25. >>



    You got to admit the 1978 was a good guess image

    I got to say in 1979 grading was looser than 20/25 gee, I am sorry about the spelling. ANACS mea cupa mea cupa a thousand times mea cupa. >>



    Why would you say that in 1979 grading was looser than 20/25?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Simply, because it was. I saw "clipped" Walkers get a MS 65/65 grade Let's not ruin this guy's thread. Regards, Mike
  • cameron12xcameron12x Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
    I have to admit, I've not seen this much disagreement over grading in a long, long time.

    image

    Sorry to have caused so much controversy! image
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭
    You've posted the same set of pictures three times...tell us what the grade is!! Please.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can't have a decently original Fine seated dollar with 75% of the eagle's feathers showing. That's just focusing way too much on one detail of the coin.
    Not much different than focusing on Liberty's wreath for Barber halves/quarters while once again ignoring the eagle's feather detail. But I firmly support trying
    to buy these types of coins for Fine money as long as there exist "old time" sellers out there who will let them go on the cheap. image
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Maybe he was only looking for opinions. The coin has chatter of a damage nature in the field on the obverse and others have brought up good grading points and tips. i.e. tooling, lack of shield detail etc. so, I think it has and EF reverse and who knows the obverse. It seems that sometimes, the TPGs only grade one side. I still say it is a VF coin, at least "market grading" would make it so. NO? Regards, Mike
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,749 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have to admit, I've not seen this much disagreement over grading in a long, long time.

    image

    Sorry to have caused so much controversy! image >>



    Not a problem! How do you, as a collector, grade it?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,749 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Simply, because it was. I saw "clipped" Walkers get a MS 65/65 grade Let's not ruin this guy's thread. Regards, Mike >>



    Really?

    BTW, I can speak for how ANACS was grading coins in 1979 because I was the person hired to start their grading service. Where were you grading coins in 1979?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Really! I remember the B&W photo issued to WGY coin. Things were just different then. I thought this persons coin would come back VF even though I know it has a bit of a bump at 2 o clock on the reverse. I see that a lot of people put a lot of emphasis on old PCGS NGC holders these days. Why is that? Could it be grading? Once again! So, I market graded a 'subjective opinion' on a coin. Let's not ruin the guys thread. Can anyone tell me how to change that 410a name to say MYKIE or something friendlier? Regards, Mike
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have to admit, I've not seen this much disagreement over grading in a long, long time. >>

    IMO, it's because folks who aren't well-versed in Seated coins may not realize you can't use the legend to grade as the first impression toward grading an 1871 Seated Dollar as you would an 1871 Seated dime, quarter or half.
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Yes, what with Ten obverse dies and Five reverse dies known.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,749 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Anac's grade 1978.....................VF30/EF40

    2012 grade VF 30 >>



    ANACS did not grade coins in 1978. Nor did it have an apostrophe in it.

    Had it been submitted for grading in 1979, when we did begin grading, I might have called it a VF-20/25. >>



    You got to admit the 1978 was a good guess image

    I got to say in 1979 grading was looser than 20/25 gee, I am sorry about the spelling. ANACS mea cupa mea cupa a thousand times mea cupa. >>



    Why would you say that in 1979 grading was looser than 20/25? >>



    Again I ask you, why would you say that in 1979 grading was looser than 20/25?

    I don't have a copy of the most recent PCGS Authentication and Grading Guide handy, but I remember that in the first few editions, under the introduction to grading, it stated that in 1979 ANACS was being criticized by the industry for grading coins too conservatively. Perhaps somebody who does have a copy of the book at hand can enlighten us.

    As to the error half dollar, which I do not remember, our published standards at that time stated that we graded coins based upon what happened to them after they were struck, and included in the description extenuating circumstances such as, in your example, "Struck on a Clipped Planchet."

    By our published standards a clipped coin could indeed be an MS-65/65. If our gracious hosts choose to operate under different published standards, that is their right.

    As to the original coin of this thread, I think that it is a marvelous example of the complexities of grading, and I thank the poster for beginning this lively discussion!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Believe me standards have changed over the years.

    I said so.

    Anacs doesn't bring the money PCGS coins do.

    Anacs doesn't bring the money NGC coins do.

    I was a collector in the 1970s when ANACS was an authetication service and then a grading service. I saw and evolution then in grading and I see one now. What with plus signs and beans and stars next to grades. Dealers didn't want to acknowledge ANACS graded coin back in the day, much like they don't want to acknowledge "beans" today. Just check out the Long Beach Thread.

    I was there I saw the grading. That is my opinion. Like I said; "I'm sorry your "haughtiness" could not handle my opinion or my spelling error" The thread is about the grade of this seated dollar. You're just trying to exercise your laurels in my opinion. Let's not ruin the guys thread. Warm Regards, Mike

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