Is it illegal, dishonest or unethical......
jhdfla
Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭
for a principal in an auction firm to disparage coins consigned and/or approaching sale in a competitor's auction (especially in a public forum).
If the criticism is valid, does this change the level of material damage to the value of the consignor's property?
After reading the interesting thread, " Do all auction companies place bids on coins they would like to retail, if successful with their bids?" I thought I'd pose this question with regard
to the principal(s) of an auction house in a separate thread.
If the criticism is valid, does this change the level of material damage to the value of the consignor's property?
After reading the interesting thread, " Do all auction companies place bids on coins they would like to retail, if successful with their bids?" I thought I'd pose this question with regard
to the principal(s) of an auction house in a separate thread.
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Dishonest: No, but honesty has nothing to do with the situation.
Unethical: I don't think ethics has much to do with this situation either.
Tacky: Perhaps
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
For me modern ethics comes out of classic works like Aristotle's "Nichomachean Ethics" where he taught that the mean between extremes should be the objective. If someone is not giving a balanced assessment when this is the expectation there is something wrong, ultimately proper imaging clears up questions.
But its human nature for salespeople to only represent the positive qualities of coins: "This 2008-s proof Lincoln cent is truly one of a kind. It is graded PR70 Ultra Cam by one of the most prestigious grading companies and has earned the coveted "CAC" sticker. We are expecting very strong bidding on this extremely desireable and premium quality example in a series that may be limited soon by an act of Congress." Basher: "This extremely common coin has all sorts of issues that should have kept it down in the AU grade level, frankly we are extremely surprized it was not graded "damaged" or "artificially toned" and body bagged. It would be worth face value but we doubt even shop keepers would accept it as genuine".
<< <i>for a principal in an auction firm to disparage coins consigned and/or approaching sale in a competitor's auction (especially in a public forum).
>>
epcjimi1 Van Buren answers:
Illegal? No.
Dishonest? If the name is not put to the disparaging remarks so a potential buyer can assess the source of said remarks, than I would say it is dishonest.
Unethical? Yep. Principals in an auction firm should let competitors auction run unhindered without disparaging an auction in a public forum.
Disparaging a nice coin so that one can buy it cheaper or cast doubt upon a competitor is certainly the latter two.
<< <i>
After reading the interesting thread, " Do all auction companies place bids on coins they would like to retail, if successful with their bids?" I thought I'd pose this question with regard
to the principal(s) of an auction house in a separate thread. >>
Can u post a link to that thread?
illegal, dishonest or unethical...... nope
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
<< <i>Calling a spade a spade is hardly illegal, dishonest or unethical
Disparaging a nice coin so that one can buy it cheaper or cast doubt upon a competitor is certainly the latter two. >>
Calling a "spade a spade" in private conversation is fine, to do so on a public forum is unethical.
Damaging the value of someones coin prior to the auction in a public forum such as this may not be illegal, but it is most certainly unethical and mean spirited.
If it were your coin coming up in auction, and someone were to do this to you, how would you feel about it? Would you still be fine with someone calling your coin a "spade" and having their remarks subsequently damage the value of your property??
Taking it a step further, as a principal of Legend/ Morphy auctions, would you still consider it a public service for someone to publicly bash a coin and diminish it's value in one of the upcoming Legend/ Morphy auctions?
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>Calling a spade a spade is hardly illegal, dishonest or unethical
Disparaging a nice coin so that one can buy it cheaper or cast doubt upon a competitor is certainly the latter two. >>
Calling a "spade a spade" in private conversation is fine, to do so on a public forum is unethical.
Damaging the value of someones coin prior to the auction in a public forum such as this may not be illegal, but it is most certainly unethical and mean spirited.
If it were your coin coming up in auction, and someone were to do this to you, how would you feel about it? Would you still be fine with someone calling your coin a "spade" and having their remarks subsequently damage the value of your property??
Taking it a step further, as a principal of Legend/ Morphy auctions, would you still consider it a public service for someone to publicly bash a coin and diminish it's value in one of the upcoming Legend/ Morphy auctions? >>
No doubt in my mind this thread was directed at me. What's the matter - one of your mentors owns the AT 1839 Gobrecht coming up at Heritage?
If a coin is proven AT like that one is, then you'll just have to take your lumps, bud.
I disagree.
I have routinely seen lot descriptions and/or photos shot using odd lighting, artfully done to disguise the truth about coins that have been worked on.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
A friend of coin docs calling me out for pointing out their handywork? Classic.
<< <i>for a principal in an auction firm to disparage coins consigned and/or approaching sale in a competitor's auction (especially in a public forum).
If the criticism is valid, does this change the level of material damage to the value of the consignor's property?
If the criticism is valid?
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
If the comments are about things that should be disclosed but are not, I think it's ethical and in the community's best interests to point them out.
Indeed, it may be dishonest and unethical to not point them out.
I agree with your comments. The truth is that there is a seamy undercurrent that is associated with many coin sales; the root of this is misrepresentation. And I believe that one result, newbies getting burned right and left, is very destructive with respect to the future of the hobby.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Saying nothing when you know there IS a problem would be unethical.
Successful Transactions With: JoeLewis, Mkman123, Harry779, Grote15, gdavis70, Kryptonitecomics
<< <i>Zoins,
I agree with your comments. The truth is that there is a seamy undercurrent that is associated with many coin sales; the root of this is misrepresentation. And I believe that one result, newbies getting burned right and left, is very destructive with respect to the future of the hobby. >>
That's a good point Sonorandesertrat. I believe many new collectors are shocked when they find out the amount of shinanigans that goes on in the hobby with everything from $50 raw coins to 6-figure and up slabbed coins. What makes this harder to overcome is the widespread, secretive nature of these practices. I can see why collectors would be drawn to TPGs, dealers, sticker companies and auction houses that take a stong stand against deception. We need to stand together against doctoring for the good of hobby and both current and future collectors.
<< <i>Is it illegal, dishonest or unethical...... for a principal in an auction firm to disparage coins consigned and/or approaching sale in a competitor's auction (especially in a public forum). >>
Jhdfla, if by disparage you mean to identify something that is materially misleading to potential buyers that the auction firm has taken an ethical oath to disclose but hasn't, I think it can be legal, honest and ethical to disclose that information. Doing so will protect buyers from unethical selling practices.
<< <i>If the criticism is valid, does this change the level of material damage to the value of the consignor's property? >>
If the criticism is valid and disclosure is required under an ethical oath taken by the auction firm, the damage would be to the buyer if the information is not disclosed. The potential price realized from unethical non-disclosure should not be considered the proper value of a property but the price generated if buyers are mislead. Disclosing this information publicly will better allow the property to be priced correctly and minimizes financial loss due to unethical non-disclosure. It would be better for the auction firm to make the disclosure themselves as per their oath, but until then, public disclosure is the next best ethical thing.
<< <i>After reading the interesting thread, "Do all auction companies place bids on coins they would like to retail, if successful with their bids?" I thought I'd pose this question with regard to the principal(s) of an auction house in a separate thread. >>
I can see how collectors may be drawn to auction companies with high ethical standards and principals that are vocal proponents of such.
Thank you for helping highlight who some of these firms and principals with high ethical standards are.