I'm thinking it will close $31+. I see a lot of things lining up to push metals higher. How high I do not know; depends on how we deal with a myriad of problems. The financial cliff, Europe, Middle East and the world. Many think China will eat our lunch. IMO that will not happen. Right now my biggest concern is our ability to deal with ourselves. Sadly we are a divided nation that must come together for our situation to improve. I do not see this happening any time soon so metals look good. Take care. jws
Sadly we are a divided nation that must come together for our situation to improve. I do not see this happening any time soon so metals look good.
I certainly will agree with that. Too many things that are now too deeply rooted has divided us Americans. Things usually have to get bad for the upper class before everyone starts pulling in the same direction. As long as the rich are not taxed the way the working class is, we will not be as one as a Nation. jmho.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Doesn't matter what it does for one day. It will near or peak the recent $35's before end of year. (The previous climb and sharp slope up to $47.+ was so artificial you knew it would tumble.) I really feel we will see it hang in through next year with a more stable $35 and some peaks above and below.
In my view, more folks are learning about and buying, selling, hoarding, stacking along with the value of owning directly. It will make for much more buying and selling and trading, just like a stock or mutual fund investment, and inadvertently become another form of monetary exchange of a real tangible form. As gold is as well, on a slightly larger scale. I see silver forced to break out. And I see conflict and problems with individual useage and the tax structure now in place. Something will change.
At the same time, we are becoming a nation of e-money. More and more exchanges are with credit, debit, check, and ordering online. But as things get shakey, folks will also realize the value of holding something else in-hand, and will trust the paper dollar less.
According to the IRS, the "income split point" for somebody to be included in the top 1% of all taxpayers (by income) was $380,354 in 2008 (the last year where data is available).
So, if you reported Positive Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) of $380,354 or over, then you were in the top 1% of all taxpayers in the United States in 2008.
According to the IRS, this group of taxpayers (1,399,606 total) paid 38.02% of all federal individual income tax collected in 2008.
The top 5% of all taxpayers (income split on this group was at $159,619 in 2008) paid 58.72% of all federal individual income taxes in 2008.
Let's continue to break this down:
Top 10% (Income Split Point $113,799) Paid 69.94% of Federal Individual Income Taxes Top 25% (Income Split Point $67,280) Paid 86.34% of Federal Individual Income Taxes Top 50% (Income Split Point $33,048) Paid 97.30% of Federal Individual Income Taxes Bottom 50% (Anyone Making Less Than $33,048) Paid 2.7% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
--
A few other interesting nuggets of information for you:
-top 1% of earners in 2008 brought home 20% of adjusted gross income but paid 38.02% of all federal individual income taxes
-top 1% of earners paid 40.4% of federal individual income taxes in 2007
-the top 0.1% of earners in 2008 (140,000 tax returns) paid 18.5% of federal individual income taxes
-the average income of this group in 2008 was approximately $6 million
--
There you have it, courtesy of the IRS.
Source: Taxfoundation.org - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data
ok, i'll bite. What % of lower middle class income, let's say $35k, was paid in taxes compared to the % paid by someone earning $250k+?
In other words, what was the % of the $35k earned vs. the % of the $250k earned? The person earning $250k paid a higher % of their earned income, right?
Now can a person earning $250k choose (that is the key word here and the entire point of what I am saying) to live in a $1M home? Yes. Can a person earning $35k choose to live in a $1M home? I rest my case.
The point attempting to be made is paying more % in taxes of ones earned income only means that person has more choices in life when looked thru the eyes of someone living paycheck to paycheck. There's more to life than how much taxes you paid. I feel it's what you can do with what is left over AFTER paying those taxes is the real issue.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>ok, i'll bite. What % of lower middle class income, let's say $35k, was paid in taxes compared to the % paid by someone earning $250k+?
In other words, what was the % of the $35k earned vs. the % of the $250k earned? The person earning $250k paid a higher % of their earned income, right?
Now can a person earning $250k choose (that is the key word here and the entire point of what I am saying) to live in a $1M home? Yes. Can a person earning $35k choose to live in a $1M home? I rest my case.
The point attempting to be made is paying more % in taxes of ones earned income only means that person has more choices in life when looked thru the eyes of someone living paycheck to paycheck. There's more to life than how much taxes you paid. I feel it's what you can do with what is left over AFTER paying those taxes is the real issue. >>
Oh I was confused I tried to reply before you edited and was going to point out that yeah more then likely someone making more money could afford to live in a nicer house. As for your after edit point, I tend to accept the choices I made in life and know that perhaps a couple of different choices and I would be in the top 1% myself. Thus I do not think punishing people for their success is the way to go.
More on topic I like silver showing some strength. I have every intention of selling my few hundred ozs at the right time and getting some things done that I'd really like to do. But at these prices I'm still in the buy camp.
Thus I do not think punishing people for their success is the way to go.
Respectfully slinc, you are missing my point. OPA wants to talk facts all the time, so that's what I offered. It is a fact that someone earning $250k can afford to CHOOSE to live in a $1M home, a person earning $35k can't. The person earning $250k has more left after taxes are paid. So what does my rational and logical thinking tell me if this is indeed fact? It tells me that person isn't paying at the same rate, with relation to the proportion of overall income, as the person earning $35k, and here's the point...AND CAN AFFORD TO PAY MORE. It's not punishment, it's what is right and fair if we "are all in this thing together".
Earlier in the thread, Julio said there was a divide in this Nation...and I agreed to that statement by saying "Things usually have to get bad for the upper class before everyone starts pulling in the same direction." As long as the upper class is not doing what I feel is their part is being the ones who are enabled to do something about the problem, it will continue to be divided.
If we are not "all in this together" as a Nation, we are living the result of that and the divide will certainly only widen. Plain and simple, end of story.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>Thus I do not think punishing people for their success is the way to go.
Respectfully slinc, you are missing my point. OPA wants to talk facts all the time, so that's what I offered. It is a fact that someone earning $250k can afford to CHOOSE to live in a $1M home, a person earning $35k can't. The person earning $250k has more left after taxes are paid. So what does my rational and logical thinking tell me if this is indeed fact? It tells me that person isn't paying at the same rate, with relation to the proportion of overall income, as the person earning $35k, and here's the point...AND CAN AFFORD TO PAY MORE. It's not punishment, it's what is right and fair if we "are all in this thing together".
Earlier in the thread, Julio said there was a divide in this Nation...and I agreed to that statement by saying "Things usually have to get bad for the upper class before everyone starts pulling in the same direction." As long as the upper class is not doing what I feel is their part is being the ones who are enabled to do something about the problem, it will continue to be divided.
If we are not "all in this together" as a Nation, we are living the result of that and the divide will certainly only widen. Plain and simple, end of story. >>
I will respect your opinion but when we argue about who can afford to pay more I pretty much understand where your coming from.
I also want to add that I by no means discount what people do with their money when they donate it to charities. If that is what makes a person happy, then I encourage them to do so. And to be honest, I can see how that would make a person feel like they are making more of a difference because they are more likely to see the benefits of said donation. But that doesn't change the fact that the bigger picture is what is more screwed up and needs considerably more attention. But if people are doing good for something that is close to their heart, God bless them.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Can a person earning $250k choose to live in a home that costs 4X their annual salary? Yes.
Can a person earning $35k choose to live in a home that costs 4X their annual salary? Yes.
Fixed it for you.
So, in your opinion, what percentage of their earnings should be taxed? According to Julio's facts, they, and their high-earnings compadres, are already paying well over 70% of the Federal Individual Income taxes. I guess some say that's not enough.
The person earning $250k has more left after taxes are paid. So what does my rational and logical thinking tell me if this is indeed fact? It tells me that person isn't paying at the same rate, with relation to the proportion of overall income, as the person earning $35k
This is how percentages work.
The $250K is already paying at a 33% marginal rate. while the $35K person is at 15%.
Without reiterating the myriad ways that congress and the president have done to spend us into I living over the past 20 years I just want to say:
Yes, the poor probably can use some more help. Regardless of how much they make/pay there is no doubt that this group of Americans can use some help. Drive through South LA sometime, and you will see.
On the other hand, if someone making 600k paying at a 20 percent tax rate can afford to pay at 25 or 30 percent, and still live the same lifestyle they are the maybe they could afford to "pay their fair share".
Now, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the aforementioned politicians had done what hard working Americans do every day, try and spend less than they make, save for a rainy day etc.
I don't know what the solution is, but I think we have to frame up the discussion from this perspective.
Now, in the mean time, I will take more silver and good. Btw, the ups guy just came and delivered my two newest atbs while I was typing this.
According to Julio's facts, they, and their high-earnings compadres, are already paying well over 70% of the Federal Individual Income taxes. I guess some say that's not enough.
It's just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it nor do I expect most of the people who post here to agree with me. Why? Because I'd be willing to bet that most people that post here are, how should I say it? Blessed and don't have to worry about making it to the next paycheck. I'll speak for myself and say, I am blessed, if you can't agree with that assumption. That doesn't change the fact about what my whole inital response to Julio was about, which was that this Country is deeply divided and until everyone, rich, poor or indifferent pulls together, the gap can only widen. Until the poor see the rich suffer, how can one expect anything different. Sorry, it's only human nature to want to be treated the way the rich get treated, and if you feel there is no difference, you are naive. Sorry to be blunt about it, but it's the truth.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
While I never expected this thread to morph into a debate on equitable tax distribution I'm glad it did. I believe it is a topic that is crucial for us to solve fairly. Now that you all have me thinking I am beginning to fathom how complex it is. I'm still thinking and that is a good thing. Silver did not close $31.00+. Take care. jws
Julio
Posts: 2,501 ✭
Comments
Many think China will eat our lunch. IMO that will not happen. Right now my biggest concern is our ability to deal with ourselves.
Sadly we are a divided nation that must come together for our situation to improve. I do not see this happening any time soon so metals look good. Take care. jws
I certainly will agree with that. Too many things that are now too deeply rooted has divided us Americans. Things usually have to get bad for the upper class before everyone starts pulling in the same direction. As long as the rich are not taxed the way the working class is, we will not be as one as a Nation. jmho.
In my view, more folks are learning about and buying, selling, hoarding, stacking along with the value of owning directly.
It will make for much more buying and selling and trading, just like a stock or mutual fund investment, and inadvertently become another form of monetary exchange of a real tangible form. As gold is as well, on a slightly larger scale. I see silver forced to break out. And I see conflict and problems with individual useage and the tax structure now in place. Something will change.
At the same time, we are becoming a nation of e-money. More and more exchanges are with credit, debit, check, and ordering online.
But as things get shakey, folks will also realize the value of holding something else in-hand, and will trust the paper dollar less.
According to the IRS, the "income split point" for somebody to be included in the top 1% of all taxpayers (by income) was $380,354 in 2008 (the last year where data is available).
So, if you reported Positive Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) of $380,354 or over, then you were in the top 1% of all taxpayers in the United States in 2008.
According to the IRS, this group of taxpayers (1,399,606 total) paid 38.02% of all federal individual income tax collected in 2008.
The top 5% of all taxpayers (income split on this group was at $159,619 in 2008) paid 58.72% of all federal individual income taxes in 2008.
Let's continue to break this down:
Top 10% (Income Split Point $113,799) Paid 69.94% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Top 25% (Income Split Point $67,280) Paid 86.34% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Top 50% (Income Split Point $33,048) Paid 97.30% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Bottom 50% (Anyone Making Less Than $33,048) Paid 2.7% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
--
A few other interesting nuggets of information for you:
-top 1% of earners in 2008 brought home 20% of adjusted gross income but paid 38.02% of all federal individual income taxes
-top 1% of earners paid 40.4% of federal individual income taxes in 2007
-the top 0.1% of earners in 2008 (140,000 tax returns) paid 18.5% of federal individual income taxes
-the average income of this group in 2008 was approximately $6 million
--
There you have it, courtesy of the IRS.
Source: Taxfoundation.org - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data
Take care. jws
<< <i>semantics can be very misleading at times, that's all I'll say. >>
Why not say: "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts."
In other words, what was the % of the $35k earned vs. the % of the $250k earned? The person earning $250k paid a higher % of their earned income, right?
Now can a person earning $250k choose (that is the key word here and the entire point of what I am saying) to live in a $1M home? Yes.
Can a person earning $35k choose to live in a $1M home?
I rest my case.
The point attempting to be made is paying more % in taxes of ones earned income only means that person has more choices in life when looked thru the eyes of someone living paycheck to paycheck. There's more to life than how much taxes you paid. I feel it's what you can do with what is left over AFTER paying those taxes is the real issue.
<< <i>ok, i'll bite. What % of lower middle class income, let's say $35k, was paid in taxes compared to the % paid by someone earning $250k+?
In other words, what was the % of the $35k earned vs. the % of the $250k earned? The person earning $250k paid a higher % of their earned income, right?
Now can a person earning $250k choose (that is the key word here and the entire point of what I am saying) to live in a $1M home? Yes.
Can a person earning $35k choose to live in a $1M home?
I rest my case.
The point attempting to be made is paying more % in taxes of ones earned income only means that person has more choices in life when looked thru the eyes of someone living paycheck to paycheck. There's more to life than how much taxes you paid. I feel it's what you can do with what is left over AFTER paying those taxes is the real issue. >>
Oh I was confused I tried to reply before you edited and was going to point out that yeah more then likely someone making more money could afford to live in a nicer house. As for your after edit point, I tend to accept the choices I made in life and know that perhaps a couple of different choices and I would be in the top 1% myself. Thus I do not think punishing people for their success is the way to go.
Respectfully slinc, you are missing my point. OPA wants to talk facts all the time, so that's what I offered. It is a fact that someone earning $250k can afford to CHOOSE to live in a $1M home, a person earning $35k can't.
The person earning $250k has more left after taxes are paid. So what does my rational and logical thinking tell me if this is indeed fact? It tells me that person isn't paying at the same rate, with relation to the proportion of overall income, as the person earning $35k, and here's the point...AND CAN AFFORD TO PAY MORE. It's not punishment, it's what is right and fair if we "are all in this thing together".
Earlier in the thread, Julio said there was a divide in this Nation...and I agreed to that statement by saying "Things usually have to get bad for the upper class before everyone starts pulling in the same direction." As long as the upper class is not doing what I feel is their part is being the ones who are enabled to do something about the problem, it will continue to be divided.
If we are not "all in this together" as a Nation, we are living the result of that and the divide will certainly only widen. Plain and simple, end of story.
<< <i>Thus I do not think punishing people for their success is the way to go.
Respectfully slinc, you are missing my point. OPA wants to talk facts all the time, so that's what I offered. It is a fact that someone earning $250k can afford to CHOOSE to live in a $1M home, a person earning $35k can't.
The person earning $250k has more left after taxes are paid. So what does my rational and logical thinking tell me if this is indeed fact? It tells me that person isn't paying at the same rate, with relation to the proportion of overall income, as the person earning $35k, and here's the point...AND CAN AFFORD TO PAY MORE. It's not punishment, it's what is right and fair if we "are all in this thing together".
Earlier in the thread, Julio said there was a divide in this Nation...and I agreed to that statement by saying "Things usually have to get bad for the upper class before everyone starts pulling in the same direction." As long as the upper class is not doing what I feel is their part is being the ones who are enabled to do something about the problem, it will continue to be divided.
If we are not "all in this together" as a Nation, we are living the result of that and the divide will certainly only widen. Plain and simple, end of story. >>
I will respect your opinion but when we argue about who can afford to pay more I pretty much understand where your coming from.
But if people are doing good for something that is close to their heart, God bless them.
Can a person earning $35k choose to live in a home that costs 4X their annual salary? Yes.
Fixed it for you.
So, in your opinion, what percentage of their earnings should be taxed? According to Julio's facts, they, and their high-earnings compadres, are already paying well over 70% of the Federal Individual Income taxes. I guess some say that's not enough.
The person earning $250k has more left after taxes are paid. So what does my rational and logical thinking tell me if this is indeed fact? It tells me that person isn't paying at the same rate, with relation to the proportion of overall income, as the person earning $35k
This is how percentages work.
The $250K is already paying at a 33% marginal rate. while the $35K person is at 15%.
Yes, the poor probably can use some more help. Regardless of how much they make/pay there is no doubt that this group of Americans can use some help. Drive through South LA sometime, and you will see.
On the other hand, if someone making 600k paying at a 20 percent tax rate can afford to pay at 25 or 30 percent, and still live the same lifestyle they are the maybe they could afford to "pay their fair share".
Now, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the aforementioned politicians had done what hard working Americans do every day, try and spend less than they make, save for a rainy day etc.
I don't know what the solution is, but I think we have to frame up the discussion from this perspective.
Now, in the mean time, I will take more silver and good. Btw, the ups guy just came and delivered my two newest atbs while I was typing this.
Excuse me.
It's just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it nor do I expect most of the people who post here to agree with me.
Why? Because I'd be willing to bet that most people that post here are, how should I say it? Blessed and don't have to worry about making it to the next paycheck.
I'll speak for myself and say, I am blessed, if you can't agree with that assumption. That doesn't change the fact about what my whole inital response to Julio was about, which was that this Country is deeply divided and until everyone, rich, poor or indifferent pulls together, the gap can only widen. Until the poor see the rich suffer, how can one expect anything different. Sorry, it's only human nature to want to be treated the way the rich get treated, and if you feel there is no difference, you are naive. Sorry to be blunt about it, but it's the truth.
Now that you all have me thinking I am beginning to fathom how complex it is. I'm still thinking and that is a good thing.
Silver did not close $31.00+.
Take care. jws