The 1872-CC $20 double eagle cancelled obverse die sold at the 2012 Summer ANA Stacks Bowers rarity
oreville
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Now celebrating its 150th anniversary in 2022!
$9500 plus the 17.5% juice.
this cancelled die has a very interesting history. So interesting and so nice that i decided to win it and take it home.
I had Todd take pictures of it as the Stacks Bowers pictures were very ordinary.
Hopefully, after he gets his 400 hours of sleep from the aftermath of this ANA show he can post the picture(s)
Here is the first one:
Lot #11772. Cancelled Obverse Die for the 1872-CC Liberty Double Eagle.
Cancelled 1872-CC Double Eagle Obverse Die
Description: Size: 2 1/2" high, 1 3/4" diameter, actual die face 1 5/16" across. Deep steel-gray with chiseled X across the die face, single C stamped on neck of die.
Found in Washoe County, Nevada, in January 1999 during development of a new park on the grounds of the old Carson City Mint-Nevada State Museum. The present die was found under a thin layer of earth along with literally hundreds of other discarded dies from the hay-day of Nevada's capital city mint. The theory behind the discovery of the hoard is simple. At some point, an old wooden shed was outside the mint's blacksmith shop. As each calendar year ended, the books were tallied and dies of the year were cancelled with a chisel and discarded in the shed near the blacksmith shop, covered by earth and trash and then forgotten. During the discovery in 1999, numerous dies were found dating from the 1870s, including the present 1872-dated double eagle obverse die. A pair of dies, obverse and reverse, were found for an 1876-CC half dollar; these dies were in excellent shape, given the circumstances, and were used to make impressions on silver bars and other items for collectors.
The presently offered die will make an excellent addition to a Carson City Mint-related collection or an advanced double eagle cabinet.
Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
Without a doubt this will be a show-stopper at a convention, club meeting, or other event where collectors gather. Carson City Mint double eagles are rare enough in their own right, with 1872-CC being a key issue, but having a die is an almost impossible situation. What a nice go-with this will be to a collection of Carson City Mint coinages.
This is the original Stacks Bowers auction photo which I found in their restored auction archives.
$9500 plus the 17.5% juice.
this cancelled die has a very interesting history. So interesting and so nice that i decided to win it and take it home.
I had Todd take pictures of it as the Stacks Bowers pictures were very ordinary.
Hopefully, after he gets his 400 hours of sleep from the aftermath of this ANA show he can post the picture(s)
Here is the first one:
Lot #11772. Cancelled Obverse Die for the 1872-CC Liberty Double Eagle.
Cancelled 1872-CC Double Eagle Obverse Die
Description: Size: 2 1/2" high, 1 3/4" diameter, actual die face 1 5/16" across. Deep steel-gray with chiseled X across the die face, single C stamped on neck of die.
Found in Washoe County, Nevada, in January 1999 during development of a new park on the grounds of the old Carson City Mint-Nevada State Museum. The present die was found under a thin layer of earth along with literally hundreds of other discarded dies from the hay-day of Nevada's capital city mint. The theory behind the discovery of the hoard is simple. At some point, an old wooden shed was outside the mint's blacksmith shop. As each calendar year ended, the books were tallied and dies of the year were cancelled with a chisel and discarded in the shed near the blacksmith shop, covered by earth and trash and then forgotten. During the discovery in 1999, numerous dies were found dating from the 1870s, including the present 1872-dated double eagle obverse die. A pair of dies, obverse and reverse, were found for an 1876-CC half dollar; these dies were in excellent shape, given the circumstances, and were used to make impressions on silver bars and other items for collectors.
The presently offered die will make an excellent addition to a Carson City Mint-related collection or an advanced double eagle cabinet.
Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
Without a doubt this will be a show-stopper at a convention, club meeting, or other event where collectors gather. Carson City Mint double eagles are rare enough in their own right, with 1872-CC being a key issue, but having a die is an almost impossible situation. What a nice go-with this will be to a collection of Carson City Mint coinages.
This is the original Stacks Bowers auction photo which I found in their restored auction archives.
A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
9
Comments
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
We must be in a time warp again, the congrats post is 4 minutes before the original post!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
It has the "buried" rusted look. Nice pick up!
100% Positive BST transactions
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Very very nice! Where's the other 'C'? >>
Hush, hush sweet Charlotte.....
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Time to make some restikes!
<< <i>Was that part of the hoard of cancelled dies found buried out side the Carson City mint a while back?
It has the "buried" rusted look..... >>
Absolutely! See Stacks Bowers description below.
Lot #11772. Cancelled Obverse Die for the 1872-CC Liberty Double Eagle.
Cancelled 1872-CC Double Eagle Obverse Die
Description: Size: 2 1/2" high, 1 3/4" diameter, actual die face 1 5/16" across. Deep steel-gray with chiseled X across the die face, single C stamped on neck of die.
Found in Washoe County, Nevada, in January 1999 during development of a new park on the grounds of the old Carson City Mint-Nevada State Museum. The present die was found under a thin layer of earth along with literally hundreds of other discarded dies from the hay-day of Nevada's capital city mint. The theory behind the discovery of the hoard is simple. At some point, an old wooden shed was outside the mint's blacksmith shop. As each calendar year ended, the books were tallied and dies of the year were cancelled with a chisel and discarded in the shed near the blacksmith shop, covered by earth and trash and then forgotten. During the discovery in 1999, numerous dies were found dating from the 1870s, including the present 1872-dated double eagle obverse die. A pair of dies, obverse and reverse, were found for an 1876-CC half dollar; these dies were in excellent shape, given the circumstances, and were used to make impressions on silver bars and other items for collectors.
The presently offered die will make an excellent addition to a Carson City Mint-related collection or an advanced double eagle cabinet.
Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
Without a doubt this will be a show-stopper at a convention, club meeting, or other event where collectors gather. Carson City Mint double eagles are rare enough in their own right, with 1872-CC being a key issue, but having a die is an almost impossible situation. What a nice go-with this will be to a collection of Carson City Mint coinages.
Not that it makes a difference but I think there's actually two known as I recall Fred Weinberg or Mike Byers had another in the last 5 years or so.
This is the one that Fred Weinberg consigned to StacksBowers.
It appears that it was, judging by the gold-colored (brass ?) build up in the recesses of the "X" and other details.
<< <i>Sounds like a great coin with lots of history,congrat's!!!
Geez, I suffered a MASSIVE brain fart when I commented....not a coin but a canceled die!!!
When the die was used it was Ormsby County. Later it was changed to Carson City County.
Washoe county is the adjacent county to the north. Reno is in Washoe County.
bob
<< <i>Was this die already used to make some modern re-strikes ?
It appears that it was, judging by the gold-colored (brass ?) build up in the recesses of the "X" and other details. >>
I was under the assumption that the Carson City Historical Society or whatever they are called had done some re-strikes onto some 1 oz silver bars about 10 years ago before the cancelled die was sold to Mike Byers/Fred Weinberg.
<< <i>
<< <i>Was this die already used to make some modern re-strikes ?
It appears that it was, judging by the gold-colored (brass ?) build up in the recesses of the "X" and other details. >>
I was under the assumption that the Carson City Historical Society or whatever they are called had done some re-strikes onto some 1 oz silver bars about 10 years ago before the cancelled die was sold to Mike Byers/Fred Weinberg. >>
I have a customer with a collection of the restrikes and knows the guys that struck them. I will ask.
There was also an 1877 cancelled $20 obverse die that sold around 2000, also around $20,000.
gold die was not used to make
restrikes/test pieces, etc........
I've owned it for a long time, and
thought it was time to 'let it go' -
I thought it went very very reasonably,
but I'm glad the new owner appreciates
it!
restrike of this uniface $20 gold die. Oreville, you need to get together with Mr. Carr
and see what, if anything, you both could do about this!
bob
I'd provide the gold if needed (a non CC $20 piece of course).
I have already planned to send the cancelled die to Daniel Carr for his research. Not for restrikes.
While I happen to be a big fan of his work, I take a VERY dim view of stressing a 140 year old die to make some re-strikes.
This is something that is retired and should be treated as such. After all, it was ACTUALLY DEAD/BURIED in the ground for almost 130 years! And now you want it to go back to WORK???? LOL.
Possibly a plaster of paris if it does not stress the cancelled die might be an option.
<< <i>Possibly a plaster of paris if it does not stress the cancelled die might be an option. >>
Once you have the plaster I think a "copy die" can be made fairly easily. You could also remove those annoying cancellation marks on the plaster model
bob
<< <i>That 1872-CC $20 Type 2 Liberty
gold die was not used to make
restrikes/test pieces, etc........
I've owned it for a long time, and
thought it was time to 'let it go' -
I thought it went very very reasonably,
but I'm glad the new owner appreciates
it! >>
So what do you think accounts for the gold-coloring in the "X" and other recesses ?
It looks like metal transfer from striking that I see on my own dies. But I see that the
"C" also has the gold color in it.
<< <i>I take a VERY dim view of stressing a 140 year old die to make some re-strikes. >>
"Transfer dies" can be created to preserve the original die. The CHS Kellogg slugs were made using new transfer dies created from the original dies.
<< <i>oreville think it would be pretty cool if you have dcarr make a transfer die from it and make some restrikes like Bashlow did with the confederate cents.
It would be cool to mate it with a reverse die too
<< <i>It would be cool to mate it with a reverse die too
I have never seen a cancelled $20 Liberty type II reverse die!
For Carson City mint, I would only have the years 1870 to 1876 to choose from.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>
<< <i>I take a VERY dim view of stressing a 140 year old die to make some re-strikes. >>
"Transfer dies" can be created to preserve the original die. The CHS Kellogg slugs were made using new transfer dies created from the original dies. >>
That is the official story. I'm skeptical. How was the "transfer" accomplished ? To me, they look like an engraver looked at the die while engraving a copy die by hand.
To make such a "transfer die" the way the Mint does it, you would have to use the original die like it was a master die, and generate a working hub from it.
This puts a lot of stress on the original die - much more than just striking a coin with it. Then you'd have to use that working hub to make a new working die.
Any defects (rust pits) in the original die would be transferred as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly a plaster of paris if it does not stress the cancelled die might be an option. >>
Once you have the plaster I think a "copy die" can be made fairly easily. You could also remove those annoying cancellation marks on the plaster model
If you're going to go that far, you might as well just make a "transfer" from an actual coin, rather than from the rusted die.
<< <i>... I take a VERY dim view of stressing a 140 year old die to make some re-strikes.
This is something that is retired and should be treated as such. After all, it was ACTUALLY DEAD/BURIED in the ground for almost 130 years! And now you want it to go back to WORK???? LOL.
Possibly a plaster of paris if it does not stress the cancelled die might be an option. >>
Looking at the pictures of the die, it appears sound enough to take the stress of striking.
But suppose it did develop a crack ? That still wouldn't really diminish the value very much -
it already has a big "X" chopped into it
tonnage as the Mint used. Maybe copper? I have a uniface CC in copper from a buried die. That
would be cool as well. Heck, aluminum would be very acceptable and much easier to strike, right?
bob
<< <i>Gold is pretty soft and maybe it could handle a couple of dozen pieces. Just don't strike at the full
tonnage as the Mint used. Maybe copper? I have a uniface CC in copper from a buried die. That
would be cool as well. Heck, aluminum would be very acceptable and much easier to strike, right?
bob
Aluminum is soft for striking. Lead-free pewter (mostly tin and zinc) is soft also.
Compared to striking copper, striking soft pewter is like punching pillows.
what happened to all my images???
They got canceled?
Two very serious technical questions:
In my younger days, as I was learning U.S. numismatics, among the things that “everybody knows is true” was the “fact” that in the 19th Century dies were shipped from the Philadelphia Mint to the various branch mints in an un-hardened state, hubbed and dated or mint marked but not heated and quenched to harden it.
Does anybody have documentation that would confirm or disprove this practice?
If they did do that, when did they stop and begin shipping pre-hardened dies?
Thanks.
TD
Might have to ask Todd. Looks like the photos are not in your customer folder like they were.
bluccphotos.com/clients/oreville/8-12-11/Images/2.jpg
The base web page still exists
bluccphotos.com