ok, if $2000 is a reality, I will give you that, why did last nights one go for $3500? I offered an explanation of a possible reason why, what is yours, i'm curious?
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>There is a difference between stating an opinion and pontificating.
Point taken. I agree with you, I don't like that Forum, but I did thank the people that were even throwing salt in the wound when it was determined with their help that in fact the coin was a fake. Yes I, unlike some here, can admit to being wrong when I am...and I did.
Fair enough. I saw no need to rub salt in the wound either in that thread. We all make mistakes.
Why do you care how others spend their money?
Because when people artificially inflate the value of something, 1) it is illegal to do so, 2) it causes me to have to pay for it because there will be people who will think that that artifical "raising of the bar" is legit. >>
Just don't buy any at close to these levels and your problems are solved. Actually as long as somebody is willing to pay $2000 this is the new reality. OnlyGoldIsMoney has been hitting the ball out of the park this whole thread in my opinion. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I appreciate your caveat "appears" and acknowledgment that there is no proof. Not that it is incumbent upon you to provide...
I can tell you with 100% certainty the winner of the first two bars was not motivated by consecutive serials nor was the losing bidder on the 3rd bar that took a bow at $3500. As such, I can state that the first two auctions were 100% legitimate without any collusion activity and brought forth IMO fair market value at time of auction close.
AFA winner of the last auction... I strongly suspect consecutive was not a factor here as well though I, too, have no proof of this. My speculation stems from this bidder's strong interest in the first two bars and would find it unbelievable, frankly, for them to hold consecutive to all three auction bars.
ok, I just want to go forward by saying that I apologize for my, what could be construed as rude comments, I sincerely apologize. This has turned into a debate and because I seem to be the only one on this side of it, of course, I get pelted, that's fine, I can take it. But can we get back on track in having a civil discussion about why this has happened (a $1400 bar a few months ago now goes for $3500?). My self included, there is really no reason to get personal, it's a discussion, nothing more. I have offered some explanations yet I haven't seen any others offered. It simply happening is not at the root at why it is happening.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
There are collectors willing to pay such prices and a new floor, even if temporary, has been established. I fully support OnlyGoldIsMoney's previous comments and you'd do well to review them.
Motivated buyer(s)? Limited supply. A unique bar that we may have missed.
A promotion is possible where somebody is sitting on these. Actually I hope for the latter. So I don't discount your comments summarily POM. I just don't think one can just jump to that conclusion automatically and build a case around it.
I have never bought anything on EBAY. Does anybody know how many have been sold in the last year? Estimate?
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Speaking as a former authenticator, this would be ridiculously easy to counterfeit.
Melt metal. Pour metal. Stamp metal. Tone a bit.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I'll say those prices are insane, no bones about that. >>
What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Auctions by nature will have that kind of price variance. I dropped off some stuff at a local small time auction house today and was shooting the chit with some of the guys. The other weekend they had a "common" $1000 Canadian bill sell in excess of $2500. Those in the know about the paper money market wouldn't have valued it at any more than $1300 (retail). Next week someone could consign the same bill and only get $1200 for it (<$1000 after fees).
<< <i>ok, if $2000 is a reality, I will give you that, why did last nights one go for $3500? I offered an explanation of a possible reason why, what is yours, i'm curious? >>
Its an auction influenced human competition and not the law of mathematics. Results will vary.
A 4 digit serial number may be the reason. Perhaps an underbidder on a former auction just wanted to win.
<< <i>What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
Where can I find verified by a third party proof of that? >>
You can't and that is my point. That is the mystry behind these and price discovery is the only recourse. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Also something to think about. How many are ever out there for sale in the entire internet space at anyone one time? MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I'll say those prices are insane, no bones about that. >>
What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
MJ >>
Meh, wouldn't make a difference to me, still crazy prices to me at any quantity over 25 for a bar. >>
That is totally cool if that works for you. Obviously these have zero to with how much over spot. It's not recognized in that matter. Like everyones taste in art, everyone is wired differently.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I get the rarity and collector vibe on them, just crazy money for them with these couple auctions and I never turned on to them is all. Goes against my stackerness!
<< <i>I get the rarity and collector vibe on them, just crazy money for them with these couple auctions and I never turned on to them is all. Goes against my stackerness! >>
Totally logical and you may be right. These for sure are the ultimate in anti-stackerness. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I have never bought anything on EBAY. Does anybody know how many have been sold in the last year? Estimate?
MJ >>
MJ, my quick recollection is about seven 4 oz Engelhards have sold on ebay since January 2011 including the 3 recently closed auctions.
In early 2011 I recall bars sold for about $320 and $650. The $650 price at the time was viewed as shocking. One sold via a extremely short lived "Buy It Now" on ebay for $239 in April 2011. Earlier this year one sold for just under $600. We are all aware of the prices realized for the last three bars. Other bars have sold in private transactions.
I have never seen a 2 oz, 4 oz or 7 oz Engelhard offered at a coin show. At the ANA show last week even the somewhat more common 3 oz Engelhards were absent. Some 100 oz poured Engelhards, but no kilos, could be purchased.
I will not attempt to estimate the number of initially sold or surviving bars. I would just be guessing.
Hopefully in some safe is a long forgotten box of twenty-five Engelhard bars with a yellowed note from Engelhard apologizing for having to fill a 100 ounce silver order with 4 oz bars since 10 oz bars were temporarily out of stock.
Hopefully in some safe is a long forgotten box of twenty-five Engelhard bars with a yellowed note from Engelhard apologizing for having to fill a 100 ounce silver order with 4 oz bars since 10 oz bars were temporarily out of stock.
If that happened and they were offered on a forum such as eBay, that would surely bring the value of these bars down to a more "realistic and logical" level. So ultimately you and I want the same thing...the madness to stop so WE wont have to pay such an insane price when we go to by one.
Maybe, just maybe Mark, someone IS sitting on a mini-hoard of these and got some friends together to create a fake inflated value, at least on the first few that are being offered, because they know that the more that are offered that will bring down the value. Go ahead, you can officially call me crazy now but I don't know why anyone would not at least consider such a possible theory. There comes a time in every collectors life when they may decide to sell, sometimes it's the heirs of the items, and rather than going to their local B&M where the B&M would offer them Spot, maybe, they do some research and devise a plan to maximize their potential profit. Am I crazy paranoid, or am I ahead of the curve on this one? Maybe time will tell.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Comments
<< <i>There is a difference between stating an opinion and pontificating.
Point taken. I agree with you, I don't like that Forum, but I did thank the people that were even throwing salt in the wound when it was determined with their help that in fact the coin was a fake. Yes I, unlike some here, can admit to being wrong when I am...and I did.
Fair enough. I saw no need to rub salt in the wound either in that thread. We all make mistakes.
Why do you care how others spend their money?
Because when people artificially inflate the value of something, 1) it is illegal to do so, 2) it causes me to have to pay for it because there will be people who will think that that artifical "raising of the bar" is legit. >>
Just don't buy any at close to these levels and your problems are solved. Actually as long as somebody is willing to pay $2000 this is the new reality. OnlyGoldIsMoney has been hitting the ball out of the park this whole thread in my opinion. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I can tell you with 100% certainty the winner of the first two bars was not motivated by consecutive serials nor was the losing bidder on the 3rd bar that took a bow at $3500. As such, I can state that the first two auctions were 100% legitimate without any collusion activity and brought forth IMO fair market value at time of auction close.
AFA winner of the last auction... I strongly suspect consecutive was not a factor here as well though I, too, have no proof of this. My speculation stems from this bidder's strong interest in the first two bars and would find it unbelievable, frankly, for them to hold consecutive to all three auction bars.
This has turned into a debate and because I seem to be the only one on this side of it, of course, I get pelted, that's fine, I can take it. But can we get back on track in having a civil discussion about why this has happened (a $1400 bar a few months ago now goes for $3500?). My self included, there is really no reason to get personal, it's a discussion, nothing more.
I have offered some explanations yet I haven't seen any others offered. It simply happening is not at the root at why it is happening.
There are collectors willing to pay such prices and a new floor, even if temporary, has been established. I fully support OnlyGoldIsMoney's previous comments and you'd do well to review them.
Edited for grammer & detail...
A promotion is possible where somebody is sitting on these. Actually I hope for the latter. So I don't discount your comments summarily POM. I just don't think one can just jump to that conclusion automatically and build a case around it.
I have never bought anything on EBAY. Does anybody know how many have been sold in the last year? Estimate?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Melt metal.
Pour metal.
Stamp metal.
Tone a bit.
<< <i>I'll say those prices are insane, no bones about that. >>
What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Where can I find verified by a third party proof of that?
<< <i>ok, if $2000 is a reality, I will give you that, why did last nights one go for $3500? I offered an explanation of a possible reason why, what is yours, i'm curious? >>
Its an auction influenced human competition and not the law of mathematics. Results will vary.
A 4 digit serial number may be the reason. Perhaps an underbidder on a former auction just wanted to win.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
Where can I find verified by a third party proof of that? >>
You can't and that is my point. That is the mystry behind these and price discovery is the only recourse. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll say those prices are insane, no bones about that. >>
What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
MJ >>
Meh, wouldn't make a difference to me, still crazy prices to me at any quantity over 25 for a bar.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll say those prices are insane, no bones about that. >>
What if i told you there were less then 100 out there?
MJ >>
Meh, wouldn't make a difference to me, still crazy prices to me at any quantity over 25 for a bar. >>
That is totally cool if that works for you. Obviously these have zero to with how much over spot. It's not recognized in that matter. Like everyones taste in art, everyone is wired differently.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I get the rarity and collector vibe on them, just crazy money for them with these couple auctions and I never turned on to them is all. Goes against my stackerness! >>
Totally logical and you may be right. These for sure are the ultimate in anti-stackerness. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I have never bought anything on EBAY. Does anybody know how many have been sold in the last year? Estimate?
MJ >>
MJ, my quick recollection is about seven 4 oz Engelhards have sold on ebay since January 2011 including the 3 recently closed auctions.
In early 2011 I recall bars sold for about $320 and $650. The $650 price at the time was viewed as shocking. One sold via a extremely short lived "Buy It Now" on ebay for $239 in April 2011. Earlier this year one sold for just under $600. We are all aware of the prices realized for the last three bars. Other bars have sold in private transactions.
I have never seen a 2 oz, 4 oz or 7 oz Engelhard offered at a coin show. At the ANA show last week even the somewhat more common 3 oz Engelhards were absent. Some 100 oz poured Engelhards, but no kilos, could be purchased.
I will not attempt to estimate the number of initially sold or surviving bars. I would just be guessing.
Hopefully in some safe is a long forgotten box of twenty-five Engelhard bars with a yellowed note from Engelhard apologizing for having to fill a 100 ounce silver order with 4 oz bars since 10 oz bars were temporarily out of stock.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
If that happened and they were offered on a forum such as eBay, that would surely bring the value of these bars down to a more "realistic and logical" level.
So ultimately you and I want the same thing...the madness to stop so WE wont have to pay such an insane price when we go to by one.
Maybe, just maybe Mark, someone IS sitting on a mini-hoard of these and got some friends together to create a fake inflated value, at least on the first few that are being offered, because they know that the more that are offered that will bring down the value. Go ahead, you can officially call me crazy now
There comes a time in every collectors life when they may decide to sell, sometimes it's the heirs of the items, and rather than going to their local B&M where the B&M would offer them Spot, maybe, they do some research and devise a plan to maximize their potential profit. Am I crazy paranoid, or am I ahead of the curve on this one? Maybe time will tell.
check this out...awesome bars...
http://www.icollector.com/2012-Hot-August-Auction_as23767?p=1&ps=50&ca=39482&so=1