The $$$ Bucks $$$ for this one..... w/update: now a $9,000 + Engelhard...

NumbersUsacom · August 2, 2012 1:30AM

Check out a 4 oz Engelhard on the Bay now at $1.475.00

Edit update: Now there is a second Engelhard 4 0z Bar with a lower serial # 1086 starting bid is $1,000.00 no bidders thus far.

Both Bars look really nice, the first one appears to have been laquered years ago. The second listing states in their description that it was "produced in early 1900", they might want to check on that just a wee bit more.

Edit: Now there is an 5 oz Engelhard priced at over $9,000.00 due to it having a " P000039 " serial number, that is the lowest # I've ever seen on an Engelhard. No Bids as of yet.

Timbuk3 · August 2, 2012 2:59AM

Crazy !!!

johnny9434 · August 2, 2012 4:34AM

insane!!

braddick · August 2, 2012 8:37AM

<< Crazy !!! >>

That is crazy!
Rare silver bar, maybe?

tneig · August 3, 2012 12:37AM

Apparently if you're savy and portray your item as special or in a different way, you can get more on the wider audience of ebay. There are customers for every area and audience. Within reason. Why someone would buy that 4oz bar I don't know, as it sounds like someone is hoping for that long shot. Could its real value be double spot, or more, certainly to the person that wants that in their collection. It may be hard to determing that line between overpricing, pushing the envelope, the long shot, or just using the medium for stealing. But ya know, and most of us know, when the line is crossed. One of the reasons why the coinage collecting market became a turn off to me.

You can buy from the secondary mints or home shopping networks, etc., and pay an enormous amount for commemoratives with little PM content or real value to them. We all see folks trying to sell big collections of this stuff and realizing what happened to them. -But then again, you may want to own a nice low silver content elvis set and thats perfectly fine too. There are 'legit' dealers selling overpriced high graded coins to less-aware folks and investors that will never ever return close to the value purchased. Its a wide range, but the line of taking advantage is up to the individual I guess. Gouging someone, via deception is parallel to stealing to me.

Offering something unique or a different combination, for a higher, but resonable premium price is ok. I see folks on craigs selling non-proof ASEs in proof boxes for $75 and that to me is stealing. However if someone offers a real proof or a small set at $75+ per, and thats all someone wants, then thats ok too. govmint overprices real stuff and if you don't mind picking up something you missed at the mint, then its up to you if its worth it. To me, the usmint seems to go a bit overboard on some things too. The audience is wide and that is good.

I'd dip and polish up an ASE and make it shinny to help enhance a sale, but never portray it as more than it is, stating exactly how it was prepped. I'd never clean a morgan or peace as deception of its grade. But I'd dip and polish an old one as a gift to a friend, or even sell it as cleaned for a base price stating so. I plan to be creative at my sale times, when selling to smaller audiences like at a flea market or on craigs. I would easily sell a plain clean polished ASE in a nice box for much more, but never portray it as a proof or more than it is, other than nice bullion.

If you sell on ebay, you have to sell for more. If you sell that same item via craigs for the same price, thats creative and ok. If you sell it to someone for many +++ times that price when you know they don't understand, and especially counting on you not ripping them off, its stealing. If you sell something for such an enormous over the top price, it generally is only being bought by someone makeing a mistake, then you are stealing.

I'm looking to buy '100, 1 gram silver bars for slightly less then $200 del'. Yet I see parallel ebay items of the same exact thing for double, even triple, and more, hoping for that one rip off sale, which is stealing.

rawteam1 · August 3, 2012 1:34AM

tneig?????????

auction started at 99 cents...
the whole listing reads only that it is a "Engelhard - 4 troy oz .999 Silver - RARE - Old Style Poured Bar"...
there is no other description,thats it...
oh & it has pictures of bar...

tneig · August 3, 2012 2:52AM

Now thats funny, right there. I don't care who ya are.
Should be used to me going off on tangents already.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 3, 2012 10:52AM

Engelhard 4 oz poured bars speak for themselves and require no hype. Those who collect bars know what they are.

In my opinion the 4 oz Engelhards are worth $500-$700. That is about $150 an ounce. So far three ebay bidders view the current bar as worth $300+ per ounce.

$1,475 for a rare Engelhard might seem crazy but it only requires a handful of motivated collectors to establish a new price level. Anyone who has a stash of these bars can make a killing selling them off slowly. However, those stashes don't seem to exist.

LukeMarshall · August 3, 2012 11:55AM

I see no stealing going on here... Just a collectible bar that someone absolutly MUST have for their collection.

I guess if you don't have something and it comes up for sale seldomly at best, then you might do everything in your power to attain it.

I'm guilty of $10+ premium on a bullion piece, but I REALLY wanted it

nibanny · August 3, 2012 12:10PM

<< I'm guilty of $10+ premium on a bullion piece, but I REALLY wanted it

>>

I have paid well over $10+ per ounce premium on a silver piece I really wanted...actually on 4 of them!

NumbersUsacom · August 3, 2012 12:28PM

Some pieces are truly rare and very hard to come by. Ebay is nation wide/world wide and when something only comes up now and again then you must figure the rarity factor is there at least to a degree. One might have thought a piece was rare because you saw it only once every couple of years or less. but that when our geographical searches were limited. Ebay has unlocked a lot of closets, old drawers, cellars, attics, mom and pop shops all across the nation and the world for anyone to view. Now when something only shows up every great once in awhile you got to figure it must have a rarity factor going for it. These pieces easily being collected as collector coins and semi rarities. There is an inherent facination with Silver and its different forms of monetary storage (bars, rounds, cast ingots, jewelry etc.

Pcgs and Ngc are making larger and larger holders to accomodate this trend, I think they are up to 5 oz'ers now, and one of these days they may be grading and authenticating that
Engelhard 4 oz Bar.

Yukoncornelius1 · August 3, 2012 1:48PM

Geez I've got an old poured 1000 gram Swiss Bank Corporation bar with a serial number of 0019.

Perhaps I should hype it up as a rare low serial number bar made from "Nazi silver" and try sell it for $100 per gram!!!!

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 3, 2012 2:41PM

<< Edit: Now there is an 5 oz Engelhard priced at over $9,000.00 due to it having a " P000039 " serial number, that is the lowest # I've ever seen on an Engelhard. No Bids as of yet. >>

$9,000 for that common 5 ounce bar is a mite bit unrealistic. If started at $0.99 it probably would not fetch over $200.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 4, 2012 10:33AM

Winning bid for the 4 oz poured Engelhard was $2,650 - shipping was free.

Three bidders were in for $2,200+. I expected it to sell for well below $1,000.

MsMorrisine · August 4, 2012 10:38AM

I'm Waiting on First Pour!

<< Check out a 4 oz Engelhard on the Bay now at $1.475.00

Edit update: Now there is a second Engelhard 4 0z Bar with a lower serial # 1086 starting bid is $1,000.00 no bidders thus far.

Both Bars look really nice, the first one appears to have been laquered years ago. The second listing states in their description that it was "produced in early 1900", they might want to check on that just a wee bit more.

Edit: Now there is an 5 oz Engelhard priced at over $9,000.00 due to it having a " P000039 " serial number, that is the lowest # I've ever seen on an Engelhard. No Bids as of yet. >>

PerryHall · August 4, 2012 9:16PM

EBay is a great place to go trolling for suckers.

CCC2010 · August 4, 2012 10:28PM

Maybe its silver on the outside and filled with gold and platinum inside.

halfhunter · August 5, 2012 12:14AM

<< Check out a 4 oz Engelhard on the Bay now at $1.475.00

Edit update: Now there is a second Engelhard 4 0z Bar with a lower serial # 1086 starting bid is $1,000.00 no bidders thus far.

Both Bars look really nice, the first one appears to have been laquered years ago. The second listing states in their description that it was "produced in early 1900", they might want to check on that just a wee bit more.

Edit: Now there is an 5 oz Engelhard priced at over $9,000.00 due to it having a " P000039 " serial number, that is the lowest # I've ever seen on an Engelhard. No Bids as of yet. >>

Heck I'll pay $1000 for half the metal . . . If anyone has any 2oz poured Englehard bars, I'll buy any and all at that price, sight un-seen ! ! !

HH

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 5, 2012 12:09PM

Another poured 4 oz Engelhard sold tonight. This time it did not reach yesterday's $2,650. This one went for $2,075 - less than yesterday but still unheard of before yesterday.

One more Engelhard 4 oz bar was listed tonight and will end August 12.

Yukoncornelius1 · August 5, 2012 12:52PM

The prices paid recently for 4 oz. Engelhards are totally insane!!!

I have no idea how these people are ever gonna make a dime on them but to each their own.

LukeMarshall · August 5, 2012 1:08PM

Can you imagine how many of these old pours found their way into the melting pot over the years?

rawteam1 · August 5, 2012 1:25PM

the latest 4ozer has only 4 digit serial #...
so possibly rarer than other 2 that TMDM bought yesterday & today...

we shall c what da addict gets for his...

NumbersUsacom · August 5, 2012 4:14PM

Now an Engelhard 7 oz'er has jumped on the Engelhard Rocket, BIN or Best Offer $3,500.00

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 5, 2012 10:21PM

<< Now an Engelhard 7 oz'er has jumped on the Engelhard Rocket, BIN or Best Offer $3,500.00 >>

$3,500??? Just a year ago a 7 oz bar selling for $1,400 raised eyebrows.

Curiously, no 2 oz Engelhard poured bars are being flushed out by the prospect of quick riches.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 11, 2012 1:45AM

<< the latest 4ozer has only 4 digit serial #...
so possibly rarer than other 2 that TMDM bought yesterday & today...

we shall c what da addict gets for his... >>

The 4 digit serial 4 ounce bar is presently at $3,150 with over a day to go.

We'll soon see how many more show up on ebay to take advantage of the current market.

piecesofme · August 11, 2012 7:36AM

If it sold on eBay, it has to be legit, right? (DRIPPING IN SARCASM)
A group of folks have obviously gotten together and put some admittedly rare bars out there and are trying to set a new (to borrow a word from Mike Tyson) ludicrous standard. If you're believing these bars are really selling for the values they appear to be, I have some less rare .999 bars I'd like to sell you for a fraction of the cost.

Now here's what I want chal to do, for me...DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

Yo Chuck, they must be on the pipe, right?

LukeMarshall · August 11, 2012 9:05AM

That is one opinion POM, And that could be the case.

Or we could be seeing a hand full of collectors competing over for lack of a better term, "keys"

Kinda like if you really need a 1879 CC Morgan in MS64 well I'm guessing that there are more people wanting one then are to go around.

Interesting times though, think about a couple years from now.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 11, 2012 10:11AM

<< If it sold on eBay, it has to be legit, right? (DRIPPING IN SARCASM)
A group of folks have obviously gotten together and put some admittedly rare bars out there and are trying to set a new (to borrow a word from Mike Tyson) ludicrous standard. If you're believing these bars are really selling for the values they appear to be, I have some less rare .999 bars I'd like to sell you for a fraction of the cost.

Now here's what I want chal to do, for me...DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

Yo Chuck, they must be on the pipe, right? >>

You present an interesting theory about the two 4 oz Engelhard bars that sold north of $2,000 in the last week and the current similar bar already over $3,000.

I disagree with your theory as I know several of the bidders. They are serious bar collectors with formidable collections.

IMO they are in it to win it.

rawteam1 · August 11, 2012 1:00PM

def legit buyers...

POM, lol...move your rare GA's to spot they will move fast (quick sale)...

piecesofme · August 11, 2012 1:17PM

keep smokin the pipe. No way in he11 those are legit sales.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 11, 2012 1:40PM

<< keep smokin the pipe. No way in he11 those are legit sales. >>

Based on recent ebay results I will gladly pay you $1,200 each for any Engelhard 4 oz bars you have lying about. I'll flip them for a quick profit.

NumbersUsacom · August 11, 2012 2:43PM

<< keep smokin the pipe. No way in he11 those are legit sales. >>

your sig line blew his own head off because of unbelief.

piecesofme · August 11, 2012 9:48PM

lmao Numbers. What does that have anything to do with what we're talking about? Is that some kind of personal attack on me?

Whatever...feel free to keep thinking these are all legit auctions. There's a reason these recent auctions have been made to appear that the bars are actually "available", it's called collusion. Why does a bar go from $1200-1500 to over $3500 in a matter of a just a few months? If, and I say IF these are legit, the people bidding have more money than they know what to do with, which in my mind, is still artificially setting a false ceiling.
I respectfully disagree with the concencus that they are legit, that's all.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 11, 2012 11:48PM

<< lmao Numbers. What does that have anything to do with what we're talking about? Is that some kind of personal attack on me?

Whatever...feel free to keep thinking these are all legit auctions. There's a reason these recent auctions have been made to appear that the bars are actually "available", it's called collusion. Why does a bar go from $1200-1500 to over $3500 in a matter of a just a few months? If, and I say IF these are legit, the people bidding have more money than they know what to do with, which in my mind, is still artificially setting a false ceiling.
I respectfully disagree with the concencus that they are legit, that's all. >>

The recent 4 oz Engelhard bar auctions are legitimate. As noted, I know several of the bidders. You apparently do not but speculate nonetheless.

You can wonder all you want about the recent uptick in interest in these bars and claim it is all collusion. The most recent ebay 4 oz Engelhard auction prior to the last three bars ended around $600. Now they are fetching $2,000+. One collector is offering $2,000 for 4 oz Engelhard bars (perhaps more now) and $3,000 for poured 2 oz Engelhard bars. You can put your collusion theory to the test by locating some and offering them for sale. I have no doubt that such offers are real.

In a backhand way you acknowledge these recent 4 oz Engelhard auctions may be legitimate but that the prices are artificial because the bidders "have more money than they know what to do with". In my experience those savvy enough to earn substantial sums are fairly savvy in spending same.

Wingsrule · August 12, 2012 12:55AM

If a rare silver bar doubling or tripling in price over the span of a few months is collusion as you state, I guess that means the 25th anniversary sets were subject to the same activity. After all, they went up by a greater percentage in a shorter period of time.

piecesofme · August 12, 2012 1:52AM

Please forgive me for having a contrary point of view. I thought that was still allowed, apparently not. That's fine and has been noted who it's coming from.
I will rest my case because I will never pay the percentage increases these are supposedly going for if I hit the lottery today.
Having money to be able to bid like that is one thing, but being foolish with it tells me they don't respect it. Maybe a better way to say it, is how they don't value what they have. Being a collector, I completely undestand getting caught up in a bidding frenzy having done so many times, but I thankfully still know when the insanity level is being reached and know when to quit.

Pokermandude · August 12, 2012 2:21AM

The appeal of these kind of old pour bars is that there generally isn't a known mintage or survival rate. It's not like you can look up a key piece in a price guide or pop report and base the price you should pay based on that. When a certain bar only comes up for sale a few times a year and there's multiple "gotta have it" collectors, the result is obviously moon money. We don't have to agree with the price paid for something to understand why particular collectors will pay what they do. Just like how I understand why a "top pop" MS68+ morgan dollar will sell for what I believe is a ridiculous amount above an MS67 or MS68.

piecesofme · August 12, 2012 2:40AM

The appeal of these kind of old pour bars is that there generally isn't a known mintage or survival rate. It's not like you can look up a key piece in a price guide or pop report and base the price you should pay based on that. When a certain bar only comes up for sale a few times a year and there's multiple "gotta have it" collectors, the result is obviously moon money. We don't have to agree with the price paid for something to understand why particular collectors will pay what they do. Just like how I understand why a "top pop" MS68+ morgan dollar will sell for what I believe is a ridiculous amount above an MS67 or MS68.

yeah, that. I agree, and I don't understand it as you say, can't even relate to it. The possible reason is the only thing rich about me is my name.

but even if I was wealthy, I wouldn't insanely overpay for anything. Like I said, rich like I'd like to be or poor as I (relatively) am, I can't relate.

NumbersUsacom · August 12, 2012 6:50AM

not a personal attack at all.

Just noticed the ironic semi connection of unbelief. His was of another nature and ended up in disaster of his person.

Your's is a very understandable ... whoa this can't be... who would pay such money for 4 oz bars.... type of thoughts, and then looking for a rational explanation of.

It seems that Rarity recognition has and is catching up to the " Very Cool Precious Metals Bullion Arena" Go PM's

piecesofme · August 12, 2012 8:01AM

Your's is a very understandable ... whoa this can't be... who would pay such money for 4 oz bars.... type of thoughts, and then looking for a rational explanation of.

It certainly is mind blowing for sure! Those 2 bidders going at it must both have the serial number on either side of the one that is being sold and are willing to lose their mind to get 2 consecutive numbered bars in a row.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 12, 2012 8:14AM

<< Can you imagine how many of these old pours found their way into the melting pot over the years? >>

Luke, its reasonable to speculate that the odd bars sized did not sell well for Engelhard. If I am correct the company itself may have melted the unsold bars.

LukeMarshall · August 12, 2012 10:24AM

Definatly an interesting theory. I can see that though, why buy a three four or seven ounce bar when you can get a five or ten for little money more. After all it wouldn't have been that much money more to do so.

One hour left on the big four, I'm guessing all eyes are on this one...

Justacommeman · August 12, 2012 10:59AM

I love these 4 and 7 ozs..........how many do you actually see in a year? Most are in VERY VERY strong hands or have been melted. MJ

piecesofme · August 12, 2012 1:47PM

So, to whoever it was that won the 4 oz Engelhard bar for $3500, I hope that you enjoy your new purchase and realize what you have done too. Congrats!

Do you ever need a wake up call. Make sure to cancel the transaction when the seller sends you the request to

Justacommeman · August 12, 2012 2:00PM

<< So, to whoever it was that won the 4 oz Engelhard bar for $3500, I hope that you enjoy your new purchase and realize what you have done too. Congrats!

Do you ever need a wake up call. Make sure to cancel the transaction when the seller sends you the request to

>>

Says the guy who constantly carps about the Coin Forum and then starts a thread about a potential RIP on a Morgan which turns out to be a blatant fake. Make sure your alarm clock is set for your call as well. Just maybe you don't know as much as you think.

MJ

piecesofme · August 12, 2012 2:10PM

Constantly??? I don't spend nearly as much time here as you MJ lol

So I got fooled based on a picture bidding in the last hour of an auction, big freakin' deal, the seller made me whole darn near instantly because he KNEW it was a fake and I called him out for doing so, in part, thanks to some members here, that I thanked...but you conveninetly forgot to leave that part out, didn't ya? whatever, play your game...I'm versed.
You're really comparing that to someone paying $3500 for a 4 oz SILVER bar? That's a reach my friend, I'm sorry to be the one to tell ya.

Justacommeman · August 12, 2012 2:40PM

My point which you so thoughtfully prove is that you just got fooled so I don't think it's a stretch that you may be on some sort of a streak.

For the record I think the price is too high but probably be not as much as you think. Try buying some of these on the open market. Savvy collectors and dealers have been salting these away for awhile. You can't buy these in quantity. Heck, your lucky to ever see one on the floor. Ever. Even if this was a rogue sale the bar has been raised on these.

I didn't conveniently leave anything out. Your thread is there for the world to see. Oh wait, you edited out the first post to shreds where you thought you got a RIP and instead in was you that almost got ripped. Yes, thank goodness for the Coin Forum. Go ahead and mince words, you have gone out of your way to show your distain for that forum. I never even commented in your thread because I didn't want to kick sand in your face. However, when you start pontificating about something else you may not to be well versed in I think its ok to call you out on it. There is a difference between stating an opinion and pontificating.

Why do you care how others spend their money?

Don't be sorry for anything.

MJ

edited for grammer

piecesofme · August 13, 2012 5:59AM

There is a difference between stating an opinion and pontificating.

Point taken. I agree with you, I don't like that Forum, but I did thank the people that were even throwing salt in the wound when it was determined with their help that in fact the coin was a fake. Yes I, unlike some here, can admit to being wrong when I am...and I did.

Why do you care how others spend their money?

Because when people artificially inflate the value of something, 1) it is illegal to do so, 2) it causes me to have to pay for it because there will be people who will think that that artifical "raising of the bar" is legit.

dolomite · August 13, 2012 6:36AM

POM can you explain to me how value was artificially inflated? I was always of the understanding that market price was determined by what a buyer is actually willing to pay for a bar... in this case we have $2650 then $2075 and the last hammer price of $3500.

Are you suggesting some sort of collusion between buyer and seller?

Appreciate your insight on this...

piecesofme · August 13, 2012 7:17AM

Are you suggesting some sort of collusion between buyer and seller?

I will just say that it appears to be that way from my point of view. Do I have proof? No. Do bars such as this that are the rarest of the rare more than double in value in a matter of a few months? The only thing that I could think of that would cause this is what I stated yesterday, maybe the 2 bidders have serial numbered bars on either side of the one that is being sold and they were "apparently" willing to run the bid up to $3500 to have 2 consecutve numbered bars? That would be my only logical explanation of this happening. Would I pay more than double, even if I had the means to, to have 2 consecutive numbered rare bars? I'll answer that with another question...would you?

OnlyGoldIsMoney · August 13, 2012 7:18AM

<< There is a difference between stating an opinion and pontificating.

Point taken. I agree with you, I don't like that Forum, but I did thank the people that were even throwing salt in the wound when it was determined with their help that in fact the coin was a fake. Yes I, unlike some here, can admit to being wrong when I am...and I did.

Why do you care how others spend their money?

Because when people artificially inflate the value of something, 1) it is illegal to do so, 2) it causes me to have to pay for it because there will be people who will think that that artifical "raising of the bar" is legit. >>

You are way off base when you claim that a market driven price you don't happen to like is artificial or even illegal.

In a true auction we all have the right to bid but none of us is entitled to get what we want at the price we unilaterally decide is legitimate.

Markets work best when they are allowed to operate freely. Serious bar collectors are making a market for scarce 4 oz Engelhards with a new base of $2,000. That may change if some cache surfaces but $2,000+ is the current reality.

If you don't like the current reality don't bid.

The $$$ Bucks $$$ for this one..... w/update: now a $9,000 + Engelhard...

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