Hypothetical question about a PCGS coin you feel is undergraded....

Crazy4Coins

Let's say you have a coin currently in a PCGS holder that you are certain is undergraded. Everybody else that looks at the coin also feels the coin is undergraded. You have submitted it a couple times and it keeps coming back in the same grade. After very close examination, you notice a small PVC spot hidden on the coin.

Could this be the reason the coin will not upgrade? Does a small spot like this automatically take away the upgrade shot?

If so, what would you do?


Let's assume it is a $500 coin in the current grade, but jumps to $5,000 in the next.

Timbuk3

I'm kind of in the same boat with one coin
but haven't submitted it yet. Hope to
get an upgrade. Good luck on yours !!!

tahoe98

...didn't think it would grade with that on it in the first place.

BillJones

<< <i>Let's assume it is a $500 coin in the current grade, but jumps to $5,000 in the next. >>



It has been my experience that when you have something like a 10 fold increase in price for one MS grading point, it gets to be very hard to make that point. I’ve seen a number of such coins conservatively graded because of that sort of price increase. For example I once handled an 1879-CC dollar twice that was in a PCGS MS-63 holder. If it had been a common date, it would have made MS-64 easily, but given the date it was an MS-63. Maybe I was crazy for not trying it, but I didn’t see where that made sense given that I could sell it for MS-63+ money.

To me a PVC spot that can’t be removed is a major deal when you are talking about a Mint State coin. For that reason I would not expect to get the next higher grade under any circumstances.

guitarwes

<< <i>Let's assume it is a $500 coin in the current grade, but jumps to $5,000 in the next. >>



Sometimes the coin merits the grade down from the huge split, but sometimes, I think, that it's the subconscience of a market knowledgable grader that makes it hold at the lower level due to a grade guarantee.

There are multiple examples across many different series where this could come into play.

rld14

I recall sending 2 Barber Halves into PCGS, both had excellent original surfaces and great eye appeal. Not to sound like a smartypants but I am really darned good at picking raw Barber Halves to get graded.

Both coins were 40s, and when I say lock 35, I mean CAC gold 35. Well... one was worth over double the $$ in 40 vs 35 and the other had a very small jump. Now, the one that had a small jump in 40 was JUST a hair less of a coin than the one that had the huge jump.

Guess which one came back as a 40 and which one came back as a 35?

lkeigwin

<< <i>

<< <i>Let's assume it is a $500 coin in the current grade, but jumps to $5,000 in the next. >>



It has been my experience that when you have something like a 10 fold increase in price for one MS grading point, it gets to be very hard to make that point. I’ve seen a number of such coins conservatively graded because of that sort of price increase. For example I once handled an 1879-CC dollar twice that was in a PCGS MS-63 holder. If it had been a common date, it would have made MS-64 easily, but given the date it was an MS-63. Maybe I was crazy for not trying it, but I didn’t see where that made sense given that I could sell it for MS-63+ money.

To me a PVC spot that can’t be removed is a major deal when you are talking about a Mint State coin. For that reason I would not expect to get the next higher grade under any circumstances. >>

I like this answer.

As for the PVC spot, is it treatable or is it old and the coin is etched? If the former, do something about it. PCGS will clean it up for you or you can crack it and treat with acetone, then submit it raw. If the latter, then it can certainly hold the coin back. Or worse.

Some folks believe the best shot at an elite grade is done raw, not through regrading.
Lance.

Crazy4Coins

Thanks Lance...

How can one tell if the spot is treatable or has etched the surface without removing said spot first?

TwoSides2aCoin

If it's a $5,000 coin, then hypothetically, I would sell it to any of those who feel it's undergraded at a discount to the price guide and let them deal with it.

PerryHall

If it's truly undergraded, submit it to CAC and get a gold CAC sticker. Gold CAC stickered slabs can bring crazy money in an auction.

Crazy4Coins

<< <i>If it's truly undergraded, submit it to CAC and get a gold CAC sticker. Gold CAC stickered slabs can bring crazy money in an auction. >>



Wouldn't the PVC spot be enough to keep CAC from apply it's stamp of approval as well?

PerryHall

<< <i>If it's a $5,000 coin, then hypothetically, I would sell it to any of those who feel it's undergraded at a discount to the price guide and let them deal with it. >>



Many people with opinions won't put their money where their mouth is.

lkeigwin

<< <i>Thanks Lance...

How can one tell if the spot is treatable or has etched the surface without removing said spot first? >>

Obvious damage is usually easy to see; corrosion, etching. Very light PVC -- a slight haze, is usually treatable. Anything "new" offers hope. But there is certainly a lot in the middle and you really don't know until you've done the acetone dip.

You didn't tell us the coin or show images so it's hard to say much more.
Lance.

Cougar1978

I consider spotted coins low end and pass on them. Thats a heck of a jump from 500 to 5000 for just one grade point.

I would simply retail the coin as is for the best price I could get.

tahoe98

Wouldn't the PVC spot be enough to keep CAC from apply it's stamp of approval as well?

...correct. that's what i sorta hinted at earlier. i didn't think it would actually make it to the slab much less the bean.

grip

What if the spot is the size of a pin head?

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Let's say you have a coin currently in a PCGS holder that you are certain is undergraded. Everybody else that looks at the coin also feels the coin is undergraded. You have submitted it a couple times and it keeps coming back in the same grade. After very close examination, you notice a small PVC spot hidden on the coin.

Could this be the reason the coin will not upgrade? Does a small spot like this automatically take away the upgrade shot?

If so, what would you do?


Let's assume it is a $500 coin in the current grade, but jumps to $5,000 in the next. >>



It was submitted a couple of times and the TPG did not catch the PVC [I assume active] spot either time? HMMM???

MICHAELDIXON

I would send the coin to NCS and get their professional opinion. If the spot is treatable, they will do so and if not, they will return the coin untreated. Request the treated coin not be graded by NGC and send the raw coin into PCGS whenever you receive it. To me, this is a no-brainer.

coinbuf

<< <i>I would send the coin to NCS and get their professional opinion. If the spot is treatable, they will do so and if not, they will return the coin untreated. Request the treated coin not be graded by NGC and send the raw coin into PCGS whenever you receive it. To me, this is a no-brainer. >>



This is the approach I would also use.

lkeigwin

I would trust PCGS with conservation sooner than NCS. PCGS has always done it free, for me (but I've heard others say they paid nominal fees). And the grade guarantee kicks in, if the spot can't be removed and it hurts the grade.

There is no risk in sending it to PCGS. Even if NCS doesn't botch the job the coin will be raw afterwards and need regrading. A bunch of money and risk.
Lance.

coinbuf

<< <i>I would trust PCGS with conservation sooner than NCS. PCGS has always done it free, for me (but I've heard others say they paid nominal fees). And the grade guarantee kicks in, if the spot can't be removed and it hurts the grade.

There is no risk in sending it to PCGS. Even if NCS doesn't botch the job the coin will be raw afterwards and need regrading. A bunch of money and risk.
Lance. >>



Just wondering if you have any data to show why NCS is such a risk, #of botched coins vs well done conservation or is your statemant baised more on your perception of NCS baised on posts here? As for the grade guarantee my gut feeling is that as the op has sent it in for regrade at least twice and it has come back in the same grade PCGS does not feel that the PVC affects the grade, at least not now. And by submitting raw he may just get that upgrade he seeks.