Are you a gambler?
MidLifeCrisis
Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭✭
Investing in individual stocks or even mutual funds...buying coins or other collectibles...playing blackjack at a casino. All gambling.
But...When I play blackjack at a casino, I don't play with grocery money.
When I bought coins, I tried to identify coins that represented good value and that I expected to sell for a profit a few years later. I also bought coins that I enjoyed owning for their beauty and historical significance. Therefore, simply owning them provided a return on my "investment". If I sold them later for a cash profit, that was icing on the cake. Over the years, sometimes I made money, sometimes I lost money. It happens.
The only sure way to avoid losing money on individual stocks or mutual funds is to not buy them in the first place. Of course, you can make money investing in stocks and funds, but you can also lose money. There's no way to know for sure. As with playing blackjack or selling coins, it really all comes down to timing.
I used to have friendly but heated debates with an old boss about this topic. He refused to accept that investing was gambling, I suppose because that gave investing a negative connotation.
Do you accept that coin collecting is a form of gambling? Or does that make it seem too dirty?
It's addictive too, by the way...
But...When I play blackjack at a casino, I don't play with grocery money.
When I bought coins, I tried to identify coins that represented good value and that I expected to sell for a profit a few years later. I also bought coins that I enjoyed owning for their beauty and historical significance. Therefore, simply owning them provided a return on my "investment". If I sold them later for a cash profit, that was icing on the cake. Over the years, sometimes I made money, sometimes I lost money. It happens.
The only sure way to avoid losing money on individual stocks or mutual funds is to not buy them in the first place. Of course, you can make money investing in stocks and funds, but you can also lose money. There's no way to know for sure. As with playing blackjack or selling coins, it really all comes down to timing.
I used to have friendly but heated debates with an old boss about this topic. He refused to accept that investing was gambling, I suppose because that gave investing a negative connotation.
Do you accept that coin collecting is a form of gambling? Or does that make it seem too dirty?
It's addictive too, by the way...
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Comments
<< <i>Do you accept that coin collecting is a form of gambling? >>
from a dealer standpoint, i would say 100% yes. a large portion of the items i purchase i figure i won't sell right away but "hope" i can sell them in the future for a profit, the
quintessential gamble/investment.
if a person(s) can honestly admit to themselves that they have no desire to make a profit from a coin(s) which is probably a very rare perspective, then i think it is not gambling.
like you said and i agree and have said to others, "owning them provided a return on my "investment""
some people probably can't wrap their mind around the fact that just because a coin goes up in value and profit is always seemingly or factually made, it was still a gamble because the probability was
that the value could have gone down or still may go down.
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chances or odds are...
And investing is NOT gambling and more than all life is a gamble. So saying investing is gambling reduces all value in the word gambling to naught. "Getting out of bed is a gamble". That type of logic is lame, so stop saying it.
Gambling in vegas: Odds of winning are generally 45% or so. That's gambling.
Investing LONG TERM in the stock market: Odds are at least 80%. Probably 95% with a 20+ year view. That's not gambling. Better than "house" odds is not gambling.
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
<< <i>Here's one definition of gambling:
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. >>
It's subtle, but the definition of wager or bet specifies the result of a single event (outcome of horse race, roulette spin, etc.). It doesn't quite fit for investing/collecting. You might be able to make a more compelling arguments for flippers. It is interesting to see differing mindsets on this.
Virtually all of the coins that I buy I buy for fun. In most instances I have made money when I sold them. The profit was a "by-product," but given the amount that I have put into my collection, it now must be called an "investment."
In the stock market the term for risky investments is "speculative." This means that the price paid is not based upon sound financial analysis in the opinion of a given market researcher. The could be too high, or in the case of a shaky company any investment, even at a penny a share, would be speculative.
<< <i>
Do you accept that coin collecting is a form of gambling?
>>
I do not collect coins to try and make money, so for me it is not a form of gambling. If I was a dealer or an investor hoping to profit some day, then of course it would be a form of gambling. Nothing wrong with that. My business and investments are gambles, I just work to keep the odds in my favor.
<< <i>It's subtle, but the definition of wager or bet specifies the result of a single event (outcome of horse race, roulette spin, etc.). It doesn't quite fit for investing/collecting. You might be able to make a more compelling arguments for flippers. It is interesting to see differing mindsets on this. >>
The single event is the sale of the coin.
Other than the beauty and historical significance I mentioned above, and other intangibles, how is buying a coin and holding it for several years different than buying a mutual fund or stock and holding it for several years?
And how is any of that different than sitting at third base at a full blackjack table, placing your bet, and waiting your turn? The only thing different is the amount of time. The odds of winning (or selling for more money) depend on the cards dealt previously or the current market for your coin.
But, of course, this is just my way of looking at it. And calling it gambling doesn't make it bad, in my opinion.
So I guess that makes you the guy who picked up all his chips, cashed them in at the cage, and gave up gambling... but still hangs around in the casino, talking to the gamblers, and analyzing the games
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If a kid buys a coin and a dealer rips him good and years later he finds that he's been ripped, it was a lousy bet the dealer made. The kid didn't do anything wrong except trust. If on the other hand, a dealer let's the kid "make money", he's hedged the bet for the benefit of the WHOLE. A seed of generosity makes for a healthy garden tomorrow.
If there were a "fair factor", there would be no "FEAR FACTOR" in numismatics.
It's just that some want to squeeze water from a stone. That's a big gamble for those who fear the risk instead of reaping the reward of the hobby.
<< <i>Here's one definition of gambling:
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. >>
In that case investing in the stock market is not gambling.
Since you are NOT wagering. You are buying a percentage of a company. Albiet 0.000001% or so.
You are getting a part of a company not a "chance to win".
Saying that investing is gambling is akin to saying that "inaudible chanting" is music.
<< <i>Sure, I'm a gambler, and the wagers on the table are all the coins in my collection
So I guess that makes you the guy who picked up all his chips, cashed them in at the cage, and gave up gambling... but still hangs around in the casino, talking to the gamblers, and analyzing the games >>
Sort of.
I gave up gambling in the form of coin collecting. But it still interests me. In the same way that I like to watch poker but I don't play it.
I just gamble more in other ways now, since I freed up my coin gambling money.
<< <i>Virtually all of the coins that I buy I buy for fun. In most instances I have made money when I sold them. The profit was a "by-product," but given the amount that I have put into my collection, it now must be called an "investment." >>
I think this is a key point.
Somewhere along the way in our coin collecting travels, we look at our collection and realize we have a lot of money tied up into it, even if we never had any intention of investing in coins, and never viewed our collection as an investment.
Then you think about how much of it you could stand to lose. All of it? Good for you! Twenty percent? Fifty percent?
This is similar to watching the value of shares in a mutual fund fall...or losing half of the money you came into the casino to gamble with and having to decide whether or not to get up and leave.
Buying coins is not gambling either. But it does put your money in a thinly traded market. Typically a collector will be working against a spread that is much larger than if you are buying diversified mutual funds. The price to get in and out is relatively small for financial instruments, but the cost to get in and out of a coin is much higher on a percentage basis.
You can cherry pick dates and time frames to analyze any of this, but at the end of the day neither coin collecting or investing is gambling. There is just a much higher transfer cost when it comes to coins.
This is a critical consideration, and a key reason why relatively few collectors make money. There is another issue, one concerning emotional attachment to one's collectibles. Investors cannot really afford to become attached to their investments, for the simple reason that there is an optimal time to sell in order to maximize one's ROI. Collectors have a notable tendency to hang onto their collections for decades, if not for life. For example, I purchased 6 PF65-66 RD matte proof Lincolns 5 years ago, thinking that they would be good investments (and they were). However, I should have sold them no later than early 2010. The collector in me said NOOOOO! I still have them---they are worth considerably more than I paid for them, but also quite a bit less than I could have gotten if I sold them in a timely manner.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I do not gamble my money in the traditional sense--casino games, sports betting, paramutuals, etc. I will do the annual office pool for the NCAA tournament or the regular "suicide" NFL football pool, but these involve lunch money, and I do so more for the camaraderie than for the gamble.
<< <i>Other than the beauty and historical significance I mentioned above, and other intangibles, how is buying a coin and holding it for several years different than buying a mutual fund or stock and holding it for several years? >>
You are assuming that "collectors" are in it for the money. Some of us aren't.
Flippers, sure they are gambling, dealers also, although with the majority of professional dealers I would say it's an educated market guess. Some people that claim to be investors (but are actually speculators) do a lot of gambling in investment markets. If you're churning your portfolio 100% or more every year or your average holding time for an investment is measured in days, weeks and months you probably aren't an investor but a speculator. Trying to find the next hot thing is gambling, building a real collection is not, since you really don't care about the monetary outcome. My own collection is bigger than some, but much lower in value than many, and I don't spend living money on coins because it's a hobby for me. If they go up or down in value over the short time it makes no difference to me at all, and in the long term I'll be dead. If my heirs can get something out of the collection that's fine, but it doesn't represent a large part of my potential estate.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>I do not buy the premise that buying coins and collectibles is a gamble, nor do I consider investing in stocks to be a gamble. The former is a hobby and the latter a calculated risk. >>
Fair enough. But I could argue that if a hobby involves spending money, often significant amounts of money, it's not really a hobby. And each hand of blackjack is a calculated risk.
Am I a gambler .......... ?
plus kayak fishing in the open Pacific Ocean with the Sharks
Guess one could say I'm a gambler.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I do not see this as gambling unless there are limiting circumstances associated with the purchase-
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I do not buy a coin with intent of making a profit(and I have done fairly well at this)---lol
I have 10 or so albums I constantly work on, with Mercs and IHC's my favorites. Yes, I have sold complete albums or individual coins to give myself means of acquiring other coins. I, unfortunately,
did not have a plan for the first 40 years, only in the last 10 have I settled down with a game plan, which I occassionaly override with less than a perfect outcome.
I am easily swayed into a new coin, medal or token merely for seeing beauty not before noticed. Then that's me.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>
<< <i>Virtually all of the coins that I buy I buy for fun. In most instances I have made money when I sold them. The profit was a "by-product," but given the amount that I have put into my collection, it now must be called an "investment." >>
I think this is a key point.
Somewhere along the way in our coin collecting travels, we look at our collection and realize we have a lot of money tied up into it, even if we never had any intention of investing in coins, and never viewed our collection as an investment.
Then you think about how much of it you could stand to lose. All of it? Good for you! Twenty percent? Fifty percent?
This is similar to watching the value of shares in a mutual fund fall...or losing half of the money you came into the casino to gamble with and having to decide whether or not to get up and leave. >>
"Somewhere along the way in our coin collecting travels, we look at our collection and realize we have a lot of money tied up into it, even if we never had any intention of investing in coins, and never viewed our collection as an investment."
"Then you think about how much of it you could stand to lose. All of it? Good for you! Twenty percent? Fifty percent"
Sounds like you sold your collection to cut your losses short.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
UPS or USPS would be futile, too. Even next day delivery with FedEx would be a gamble.
I just said, "I don't work Sundays, but if you're in the neighborhood, please visit . "
I don't view my coin hobby as gambling at all though at times a degree of speculation does come into play.
I do view some coins as having a degree of 'investment credibility' similar to that of art, collectables and to some degree even stocks and bonds.
All are priced on the whimsy of supply and demand...
I've traded stocks, options and even dabbled in currency pairs.
Coins are to me a different beast and I view them much like I view art and I certainly enjoy them much more than a piece of paper giving me some minuscule partial ownership to some company.
There are MANY times when I feel disillusioned by all instruments traded in the financial markets and that I'd be just as well off having everything in coins! At least you can hold them in your hands and recognize that there is something to behold beyond the numbers printed on a piece of paper...
And though I'd like to think that when I buy a coin, I'm getting a good value for my dollar spent, I'm not usually making a prediction as to whether or not it's going to rise in value... It would be nice if it did but that's not why I'm buying coins for the most part.
I have to admit though that some of the foreign currency I'm picking up has me hoping for a solid return over time...
Why not??? It's numbers on paper too... And at least it's nice to look at artistically.
I do not consider myself a gambler though as my far flung speculating is done with relatively modest amounts of money and larger sums are treated with greater regard to security through diversification and 'relative' safety- which includes coins as part of a well diversified portfolio...
I'm pretty jaded from all the financial debacles I've lived through so far. I guess it's ALL gambling to some degree....maybe I'm in denial...
Sorry if I'm rambling....
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I have seen judges, lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, therapists, gynecologists, steel workers, business owners, plumbers, electricians, fund managers, economist, bank managers, professors, drug dealers etc. lose everything. The core objective for any casino is to separate the public from their money. No one wins long term except the state and the casino. Only a tiny percentage come out ahead. Play poker, or learn how to count cards. Counting gives you the edge using the +/- system but the dealer cuts two decks, that you don't include in the count and you have to play it off like your a lucky Joe. You need 40X your average bet if your serious, to catch that hot shoe or hot roll. Foxwoods theme is "The wonder of it all". Most wonder how there going to travel home with no gas money.
<< <i>7 years in the industry. Dealt and supervised craps, blackjack and roulette and worked in surveillance.
I have seen judges, lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, therapists, gynecologists, steel workers, business owners, plumbers, electricians, fund managers, economist, bank managers, professors, drug dealers etc. lose everything. The core objective for any casino is to separate the public from their money. No one wins long term except the state and the casino. Only a tiny percentage come out ahead. Play poker, or learn how to count cards. Counting gives you the edge using the +/- system but the dealer cuts two decks, that you don't include in the count and you have to play it off like your a lucky Joe. You need 40X your average bet if your serious, to catch that hot shoe or hot roll. Foxwoods theme is "The wonder of it all". Most wonder how there going to travel home with no gas money. >>
Excellent perspective and matches my view of the casino industry and the perils of gambling. All of those lovely LV hotels, malls, restaurants, etc. were not built because the casinos are freely handing out money.
The industry claims it does wonders for the economy. Really does nothing for area businesses, the customer uses their points at the casino for food, shopping, hotel rooms etc. They don't stop at the dinner 4 miles away to eat dinner, lets be serious. They'll use their points for a $25 dollar hot-dog with no ketchup instead
EDIT: I guess the pawn shops and gold buying pop-ups are doing well.
Does anyone know what that is ? Sounds like gambling to me.
<< <i>7 years in the industry. Dealt and supervised craps, blackjack and roulette and worked in surveillance.
I have seen judges, lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, therapists, gynecologists, steel workers, business owners, plumbers, electricians, fund managers, economist, bank managers, professors, drug dealers etc. lose everything. The core objective for any casino is to separate the public from their money. No one wins long term except the state and the casino. Only a tiny percentage come out ahead. Play poker, or learn how to count cards. Counting gives you the edge using the +/- system but the dealer cuts two decks, that you don't include in the count and you have to play it off like your a lucky Joe. You need 40X your average bet if your serious, to catch that hot shoe or hot roll. Foxwoods theme is "The wonder of it all". Most wonder how there going to travel home with no gas money. >>
So you're the guy who told the casino manager to tap me on the shoulder and say, "You may play any game at our casino except blackjack. If you play blackjack again, we will throw you out" and zeroed out my comps?!
<< <i>My daughter went camping with friends and relatives this weekend. She tells me some of the boys went "hillbilly hand fishin'.
Does anyone know what that is ? Sounds like gambling to me. >>
They call that "noodling" and I think that they are gambling, because when they reach in that hole under the water they wanna grab a big old catfish AND still have all their fingers too! LOL
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>My daughter went camping with friends and relatives this weekend. She tells me some of the boys went "hillbilly hand fishin'.
Does anyone know what that is ? Sounds like gambling to me. >>
They call that "noodling" and I think that they are gambling, because when they reach in that hole under the water they wanna grab a big old catfish AND still have all their fingers too! LOL >>
I perfer to shock em or blast them around here. There is no way i am sticking my hands in some holes that i fish around. I had a Nutrea scare the .... out of me a few months back at the ranch. I can skip on noodling.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
There are games that many would think fall under a "grey" area, but most of those games are based on the same premises as previously mentioned. Blackjack for example can be studied and the odds of winning can fall to the player, but the premise of the game is still 100% luck (at least until you play more than one game from the same deck.) Poker also falls under this rule, since drawing 5 cards is simply chance (or at least it should be.) Any skill involved in this game comes in the form of lying, which is why it has a negative connotation, not exactly high brow gaming.
Anyway, to me, investments and coin collecting are not gambling, since there is value added. I buy a stock, I am buying something, a physical tangibility...so to speak. I actually own a part of the company and it's assets. Sure the value can change, and I can loose my shirt, but I invested in the company not based on luck, but based on a deeper understanding of the company and it's business principles. (Course if you don't do anything to understand your investments, it isn't much better than just gambling, but you still own something.)
Coin collecting is also based on study, the purchase of a commodity, and the eventual sell of said item. Chance is involved, as with anything in this world, but chance is not the basis of the activity.
I am not a gambler (I'm sure that's the motto of all the ex-gambling addicts also
I'm sure all the business guys out there are shaking their heads...it makes sense to me.
Don't consider poker gambling though ... Problems arise when people play major-league games when they belong in the minors (or the sidelines). You'll never see me play professional football. If casinos were the NFL, and they said "for a $50 buy-in you can be wide receiver" there's no way in hell I'd ante up. I'd get killed in the first tackle. But playing a friendly neighborhood card game is totally fine. No gambling addiction, no loosing your shirt, just some cards and a few dollars rotating amongst friends.
Some of my best friends are my poker buddies. When I hear people speak negatively about poker, it makes me sad, the same way I feel sad when people say coin collecting is "stupid" or "a waste of money."
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
I was a professional "gambler" for 10 years specializing in live poker and video poker (yes, you could make very good money playing video poker), only stopping because the travel was not conducive to having a young family.
Besides being a coin dealer, I teach people how to gamble recreationally and to use casino benefits (comps) to reduce the house's edge to the lowest possible margin. I also work as a consultant to people trying to calculate whether or not they can or should pursue poker as a full-time career.
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To me, they are one in the same. I take "calculated risks," use things like game theory, utility theory, expected value (EV), etc. in my coin business as well. Without the same mindset, my success as a coin dealer would be nil.
Whether we realize it, poker IS life and life IS poker. It has every relatable numerical and psychological component that exists with regards to human interaction.
Where I live I have my choice of two casinos within a hour drive. I am indifferent to them except for the annual property tax reduction my State passes through to homeowners.
The "Win or Lose" nature of my business is a daily, sobering and intense form of gambling.
Coin collecting is my hobby and I don't choose coins for profit potential. My assumption is that scarce coins in original unmessed with condition will sell well when its time to liquidate. That is a gamble I will gladly accept.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Never tried my hand in stocks though. I wouldn't gamble on it unless I new more.
I have gambled on coins, real estate and Casinos..... So far its been ok, few losses and a few gains.
Life is a gamble, if you don't get out there and try you will never know and wonder........what if?
And if you lose and least you tried(gambled) on success
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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