Trading at a Coinshow?

JCB1983

I have heard a few opinions about customer to customer trading at coin shows and I would like to hear it from the horse’s mouth. It is of my humble opinion that there is nothing wrong with trading with fellow collectors while in the confines of a secure environment and away from dealer tables. I collected sports cards for many years and it was very common to trade with others at shows. It is obvious that dealers do a lot of dealer to dealer trading so it is apparent that it is an intrical part of the numismatic community. Why not allow trading? By the way I'm sorry if I am coming across as naive or rude here. This is in response to a gentleman who told me that I could be asked to leave a show if trading took place.

Thank You,
~Jason

scotty1419

As a collector I see nothing wrong with this - it only helps to strengthen the hobby.

I've been threatened that I could be asked to leave a show by a dealer after asking to take a look at a collector's coin - once the dealer pish-poshed it.

For me, this dealer-side mentality is that no one but a table-owner should be allowed to benefit from the shows or buy incoming coins which is a very weak argument IMO.

Especially if you're not encroaching on a dealer's space, I see absolutely nothing wrong.

In other hobbies, I pre-arrange deals for shows all the time and it works out great.

indiananationals

i think it is frowned upon ...but i have done it aswell i have always waited until they left the dealers table

Walkerguy21D

This is a sensitive area indeed. May advice is to go to the lobby or eating area to conduct business with another non-paying dealer.
If or once you develop strong relationships with dealers who have tables, then you may be able to do some looking or swapping
at their table, provided you have permission in advance.

ajman

I see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done out of sight and ear shot of all dealers who rent a table at a show. Perhaps in the lobby or in the parking lot at said show.

mingot

<< <i>I see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done out of sight and ear shot of all dealers who rent a table at a show. Perhaps in the lobby or in the parking lot at said show. >>



I'd be so leary of going out to the parking lot to work a deal with someone and the last thing I would do was to ask a random out to the parking lot. It just seems like such a poor personal safety risk to do so.

Jinx86

Ive done much of this but always with the dealers permission. Its very helpful to have a few friends with tables, that and it doesnt hurt to be part of the local coin club and wear a club badge. Ive actually had dealers give my cell number out at a show when they thought it might have been something I would be interested in.

Coinosaurus

Just don't do it at the dealer's table.......unless......

I was at the Baltimore show, and someone had something for sale, and Tony Terranova tells the guy I would be interested in it, but he didn't know where I was at. A minute later, completely by chance, I showed up at the table & the deal was done. It was $40, and we offered Tony "17.5%," as his share, but only if he could figure out how much that was

Tony passed, I don't think he is used to making change for anything less than $1000

LindeDad

<< <i>

<< <i>I see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done out of sight and ear shot of all dealers who rent a table at a show. Perhaps in the lobby or in the parking lot at said show. >>



I'd be so leary of going out to the parking lot to work a deal with someone and the last thing I would do was to ask a random out to the parking lot. It just seems like such a poor personal safety risk to do so. >>



Maybe one of the reasons promoters and dealers get ticked is that they are paying for the security at the show. As mentioned trading with dealers is done all the time. And yes if your discreet meeting other collectors away from the dealers tables is done. But if you try to set up a trading or selling operation in the concession area you will be shown the door most likely.

TomB

There are problems with collector-to-collector trading at shows that many collectors never think about. In a show like the recently concluded Baltimore show the table fee costs roughly $1,000 and then there is the added cost of travel, hotel for at least several days, food and anything else. Collectors like to trade within the secure confines of the bourse, but the dealers pay for the security on the bourse through their table fees. Therefore, the security that is so attractive to collectors is paid for by dealers and this can make dealers a bit unhappy when collectors start to do business, which is exactly what "trading" is, while standing in the aisles. Also, the aisles can become blocked at times with collectors putting down bags, taking out coins and milling about for a trade proposal, which can also inhibit traffic at neighboring dealer tables and may cost dealers the opportunity to buy or sell coins to some of the public. Lastly, in my experience, few collectors make trades quickly and this can serve to annoy folks who have paid for the space. You may leave the bourse and do trades elsewhere with little impact on those who have paid to rent the space to conduct their own business.

ajaan

I see most dealers don't like this because they are the ones paying for the table. Does it make any difference if the show charges an admission?

magikbilly

Wow. I am not a coin dealer as you know. I do authenticate, buy and sell certain items to a certain few. I go to shows of all types for 20 years. I have never heard of this dynamic. Often I meet at shows to start or conclude previous transactions. From what I see, especially during set up, so is everyone else - just before the general admission or during the first hour. I sometimes get "stuck" watching dealers/friends tables so they can run around and do trades etc. even during the show proper. Apart from obvious rude stupidity, what's the big deal.

Best wishes,
Eric

Walkerfan

I wouldn't let anyone tell that I couldn't do this just in the event that I wasn't set up with a table at that time----this is what a coin show is for!!

As stated already, dealers conduct dealer to dealer trades AND AT BETTER PRICES never even giving the public a chance---how is that allowed?? I say SOUR GRAPES and too bad!

Justacommeman

<< <i>I wouldn't let anyone tell that I couldn't do this just in the event that I wasn't set up with a table at that time----this is what a coin show is for!!

As stated already, dealers conduct dealer to dealer trades AND AT BETTER PRICES never even giving the public a chance---how is that allowed?? I say SOUR GRAPES and too bad! >>



Most of them do it for a living so it is different. MJ

TwoSides2aCoin

What TomB said so gracefully , I could not.

PTVETTER

As a dealer I see no problem as long as the transaction takes place away from the rented venue.

As an example go to McDonalds or Wendy's, NOT in the lobby, bathroom or eating place in the venue.

In other words far off the site that the dealers pay for...

For without the dealers paying, there would be NO show for you to meet other collectors.

That is just a cold hard fact........................

ColonelJessup

Just go over near the bathroom, scan some coins in bad light, and then go ask someone if you can lean over their table for a short look. Ask for it as a courtesy and you'll rarely be refused. Unless it's busy, which is good for everybody. Eventually

That's for most majors. Go overpay for lunch and graze a box or three.

Club shows everyone is working tight. Bozos and gents abound. YMMV

Kove

I agree with TomB. Dealers pay for the venue, and dealers pay for the security. For most shows, 90%+ of the show revenue comes from dealer table fees.

Now, if someone pays for an Earlybird badge, I have no problem with them trading/doing business, as they have contributed their share to the venue.

PerryHall

<< <i>I see most dealers don't like this because they are the ones paying for the table. Does it make any difference if the show charges an admission? >>



Most dealers don't like it because they can't profit from the transaction. I have no problem with collectors trading among themselves as long as it's done outside the bourse area.

Walkerfan

<< <i>What TomB said so gracefully , I could not. >>



Yeah, I guess that I can understand that and it makes good enough sense. I would still not deprive myself of the opportunity to buy, sell or trade with someone at a show, if we both were willing and given the opportunity. However, I would do it out of the way and in another location or another room, so as not to interfere with the paying dealers space----I would never do that----that would be unfair for sure to disrupt their business.

I know a couple of guys who are VERY SUCCESSFUL dealers---we're talking a business that is worth millions and they go to these shows ALL THE TIME with nothing more than a briefcase and they NEVER pay for a table. Dealers like them, b/c they are strong buyers BUT I happen to know that they have also conducted individual NON-DEALER business with the general public at these shows, as well.

Another point to make is that MANY collectors ALSO have a TON of money tied up in their coins/collections/sets and it is a HUGE part of their livelihood and investment portfolio, as well, so they have just as much at stake----sometimes more than some of the lower volume dealers do.

Coyn

<< <i>Maybe one of the reasons promoters and dealers get ticked is that they are paying for the security at the show >>



Ultimately the dealers pay for nothing. Everything including the air fare and the meals the dealer eats that day came out of some collectors pocket. I pay an admission to enter the show, the dealer pays to rent a space and that entitles me to trade/sell or discuss with whomever I want as long as it is not at the space the dealer is renting. The dealer is not renting the aisle or the coffee tables.

The way I do things is to have a PCGS box of coins with a big taped "Coins for Sale" on it. and I make it very obvious. If someone, dealer or not (I don't ask)_ asks me to see what I have , I will show them. I am not advertising, its just the name of the box where I keep my "coins for sale."

Some day the dealers might figure out that collectors don't need dealers (buying coins they don't want to collect). Dealers need collectors.

As nice and friendly as I have found some dealers to be, I think of how cheap collecting could be if we, the collector, didn't have to carry all the dealers, auction houses and shows and thier overhead.

Shortgapbob

I think some fail to realize the costs of setting up at a show. With tables, hotels, food, etc, most multi-day shows cost $1,000 or more to do. And it can be really frustrating to have to people standing directly in front of my table trying to do a deal (I have had this happen more than once). I have had buyers and prospective sellers walk right by my table because of people blocking my view while they were trying to conduct business in the isle. I have also had collectors try to interrupt a deal I was in the middle of and tell the seller that they wanted this item or that item right at my table and encourage the seller to leave my table. These instances are not acceptable.

That said, I try to be very courteous to collectors. For example, if I am sitting a table looking at coins, I have gladly showed a collector coins that I passed on and allowed them to buy directly from the seller without trying to "middleman" the deal.

I think the whole trading at shows is just a matter of common courtesy. There are places for it and there are places that it shouldn't occur.

Shortgapbob

<< <i>

<< <i>Maybe one of the reasons promoters and dealers get ticked is that they are paying for the security at the show >>



Ultimately the dealers pay for nothing. Everything including the air fare and the meals the dealer eats that day came out of some collectors pocket. I pay an admission to enter the show, the dealer pays to rent a space and that entitles me to trade/sell or discuss with whomever I want as long as it is not at the space the dealer is renting. The dealer is not renting the aisle or the coffee tables.

The way I do things is to have a PCGS box of coins with a big taped "Coins for Sale" on it. and I make it very obvious. If someone, dealer or not (I don't ask)_ asks me to see what I have , I will show them. I am not advertising, its just the name of the box where I keep my "coins for sale."

Some day the dealers might figure out that collectors don't need dealers (buying coins they don't want to collect). Dealers need collectors.

As nice and friendly as I have found some dealers to be, I think of how cheap collecting could be if we, the collector, didn't have to carry all the dealers, auction houses and shows and thier overhead. >>



I think this is a short sighted and narrow view. Saying that the dealers pay for nothing is inaccurate. The $1,000+ I have invested in a show before it opens is gone whether I do any business or not at the venue. Of course dealers need collectors, and i am always grateful to my customers, but the opportunity to buy and sell coins comes from a natural market demand. Collecting wouldn't just magically get cheap by elimating dealers.......that doesn't make economic sense. Dealers arise from opportunity and market demand. If you magically got rid off all the dealers and auction houses today, there would be new ones tomorrow because most collectors don't want to buy everything that dealers buy on a daily basis, soup to nuts. Someone would see the opportunity to jump into the market to buy all that excess silver, excess proof sets, modern mint material, etc that collectors either don't want or want to cherrypick.

I also don't think some appreciate how hard some dealers work to locate nice coins to offer customers. This isn't just as easy as turning on a computer. Many dealers work extremely hard networking with others and scouring shows across the country to turn up "fresh" want list coins.

Walkerfan

<< <i>I think some fail to realize the costs of setting up at a show. With tables, hotels, food, etc, most multi-day shows cost $1,000 or more to do. And it can be really frustrating to have to people standing directly in front of my table trying to do a deal (I have had this happen more than once). I have had buyers and prospective sellers walk right by my table because of people blocking my view while they were trying to conduct business in the isle. I have also had collectors try to interrupt a deal I was in the middle of and tell the seller that they wanted this item or that item right at my table and encourage the seller to leave my table. These instances are not acceptable.

That said, I try to be very courteous to collectors. For example, if I am sitting a table looking at coins, I have gladly showed a collector coins that I passed on and allowed them to buy directly from the seller without trying to "middleman" the deal.

I think the whole trading at shows is just a matter of common courtesy. There are places for it and there are places that it shouldn't occur. >>



I agree with everything you just said BUT I want to add that collectors AND/OR non-table purchasing dealers pay just as much for food, gas and lodging to be able to attend some of these shows as table buying dealers do, especially for the bigger & better shows that are in other parts of the state or country.

Senex

<< <i>As a collector I see nothing wrong with this - it only helps to strengthen the hobby.

I've been threatened that I could be asked to leave a show by a dealer after asking to take a look at a collector's coin - once the dealer pish-poshed it.

For me, this dealer-side mentality is that no one but a table-owner should be allowed to benefit from the shows or buy incoming coins which is a very weak argument IMO.

Especially if you're not encroaching on a dealer's space, I see absolutely nothing wrong.

In other hobbies, I pre-arrange deals for shows all the time and it works out great. >>


Well I can certainly see the dealer's POV - he pays to sell at the show.
OTOH if a dealer doesn't want to buy a coin, I see no problem if, away from the dealer area, you make an offer.
I guess you could say I'm not sure!

MICHAELDIXON

As a promoter of small shows, I encourage it for collectors. Whenever there is an unoccupied table, I have placed chairs around it and placed a sign "Trading Table." Several places I have put on shows, I have had a "Trading Table" at all the shows. Some dealers do not like it, but I have seen it bring money onto the floor that otherwise would have walked out the door. The problem I have found is whenever vest pocket dealers try to abuse the system. In Kentucky, I had to have one vest pocket dealer escorted out of the show because he became "problematic" whenever I asked him to take his coins off the table and let others use it. As long as it doesn't get abused, I will encourage it.

JCB1983

I feel like I am kind of stuck in the middle here. I consider myself a collector. I would not consider myself a dealer and I've never run a table.. but I do work in a busy pawnshop. I handle all numismatic related material and I know the profit margins. 1,000 is a drop in the bucket. Wouldn't you just wrap in whatever show fees you have into your entire system of coins in a form of quantitative easing?

I really do not want to sound "anti-dealer" here. I imagine it is long exhausting work. A Grind. But I do believe that the customer should always come first. I'm also not saying that it is fair, but I feel a progressionism towards the buyer. With the onset of the internet comes expanded buyer expectations. If these expectations are not met than there a thousands of venues to purchase coins from.

With that being said I am taking the perspective of the customer here. I could have this all wrong, but I believe it would be fair for everyone if patrons were allowed to trade in an area that is not distracting to commerce.



(Thank you for your response btw Dixon, I hit submit too soon).

BillJones

<< <i>I see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done out of sight and ear shot of all dealers who rent a table at a show. Perhaps in the lobby or in the parking lot at said show. >>



It is totally unfair for you trade coins in the bourse area WITHOUT a dealer's permission. They are paying for the tables which in turn is paying for the venue where the show is held. The exception is if a dealer gives you permission to trade. I've purchased a piece from a collector with a dealer's permission at their table. In return for this I have or have I seen collectors give the dealer a "TIP."

Most large shows do not allow you to trade in the dining area. For example it is forbidden for you to trade coins at the tables outside of the Baltimore show. Once more this is in deference to the dealers who are paying for the tables and carrying the expense of the show as a result.

Trading coin in the parking is something that is probably okay, BUT remember there are security issues when you do this. If you get robbed in the parking lot because you are trading coins, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Coinbot

Dealers should pay for the security since 99% of the secured valuables at a show are dealers coins.

DIMEMAN

Absolultly nothing wrong with this as long as you are not intefering with a dealers table space.

Break area is a good place......no need to go outside at all!

Coinosaurus

I am usually rabidly pro-dealer but I have to disagree with the dealer sentiment here. Dealers pay for table space, true enough, but collectors pay a lot to attend the show as well. I can't attend for Baltimore for less than $500, and that is on a good day. I am not going to hog a dealer's table space for a private deal but I have zero problem w/buying and selling w/other collectors. A lot of it will happen in hotel rooms, but if it is on the bourse floor I won't apologize for it. Quite often business will be transacted at a vacated dealer booth. I'm sure someone will have a problem with that as well......c'est la vie......if the dealer wants to taxi back from the airport and kick me out of their booth I won't argue.

SeattleSlammer

<< <i>I am usually rabidly pro-dealer but I have to disagree with the dealer sentiment here. Dealers pay for table space, true enough, but collectors pay a lot to attend the show as well. I can't attend for Baltimore for less than $500, and that is on a good day. I am not going to hog a dealer's table space for a private deal but I have zero problem w/buying and selling w/other collectors. A lot of it will happen in hotel rooms, but if it is on the bourse floor I won't apologize for it. Quite often business will be transacted at a vacated dealer booth. I'm sure someone will have a problem with that as well......c'est la vie......if the dealer wants to taxi back from the airport and kick me out of their booth I won't argue. >>





Everyone pays to come to the show. Dealers, lighten up! Collectors, be respectful!

crypto79

<< <i>

Everyone pays to come to the show. Dealers, lighten up! Collectors, be respectful! >>



Well stated, but would like to add working deals in front of an active seller is bad form. Find an empty void

ColonialCoinUnion

You may want to direct this question to the show organizer.

bidask

What if a someone paid for a nice 'double' table so collectors could come over to exclusively and freely trade at one of his tables....

A nice way to advertise yes?

I kinda like that idea .....

Let the good times !

DeepCoin

Each side here needs to think more of the other side. To all the dealers, i would say that without the collectors you have NO job, no livelihood from coins. To the collectors, I would suggest that conducting business with known collector friends should be discreetly done in a safe place out of sight of the dealer tables. This is a very grey area and each side needs to be respectful of the others. If there is a meeting of xyz collectors it is unrealistic not to think there will be some deals among them.

TwoSides2aCoin

I like the concept of a free trading area. Let's all go there.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>You may want to direct this question to the show organizer. >>

Excellent idea. I have sent off several emails and will report back if I get an answer.

Bochiman

I agree dealers pay for things. Having not ran a coin show, I would like to ask those that have, what then do the entrance fees that collectors (those without tables) pay for?

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>what then do the entrance fees that collectors (those without tables) pay for? >>

The same things that table fees pay for. Just, per person, not nearly as much of them. Which might explain why there's an apparent difference between what each is entitled to receive for what was paid.

keyman64

I have done this a few times....but always AWAY from the main bourse, away from dealers, away from tables, away from the main dealer area...typically in the hallway, lobby etc. I do not make it a practice of it but I give plenty of business to dealers, they should not be sad if I sell the occasional item to someone I know while at a show. If they want to pay my price first when I offer them the item then I would not be selling it to someone else I know...most likely. Geez, there are plenty of people that will get their pants in a wad over just about anything. I think there is a RIGHT WAY and WRONG WAY of doing this like others have indicated.

kranky

After meeting many vest pocket dealers, I understand why shows do not allow trading or selling in the show venue. If it wasn't strictly enforced, it would be like a Moroccan bazaar with dealers masquerading as collectors doing business in the aisles. Or if trading was unregulated, they would make sales look like trades. If a dealer that used to buy a table decides to put his coins in a briefcase instead and pass himself off as a collector, that hurts the overall show. How does anyone decide who is a collector and who is a dealer if everyone is walking around with coins to "trade"?

No show organizer wants to walk around policing whether those two coins being swapped + some money changing hands is a trade + cash to even the deal, or a sale with a worthless coin being handed over with the money to make it LOOK like a trade.

I don't really think anyone has a problem with collector-to-collector trades in concept but the problem is dealers would find a way to exploit the loophole and reap the benefits of the show venue without having to pay for a table. Heck, I've seen vest pocket dealers approach people in the aisle after hearing them tell a dealer at a table what they were looking for, and asking them to go over to the concession area to look at what the VPD brought to sell.

mrpotatoheadd

Quick reply from FUN:

"You can buy and sell, but only with the dealers who have tables. The public that comes into the show can not buy and sell with each other, as it undermines the business of those who paid for table space at the show."

Coinosaurus

<< <i>Quick reply from FUN:

"You can buy and sell, but only with the dealers who have tables. The public that comes into the show can not buy and sell with each other, as it undermines the business of those who paid for table space at the show." >>



Now I get it. The organizers HAVE to say this, otherwise it could be a zoo. In private, they probably don't really care about collector/collector transactions as long as they don't distract.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Now I get it. The organizers HAVE to say this, otherwise it could be a zoo. In private, they probably don't really care about collector/collector transactions as long as they don't distract. >>

I guess that's as good a rationalization for doing something they say you're not allowed to as anything.

Coinosaurus

<< <i>

<< <i>Now I get it. The organizers HAVE to say this, otherwise it could be a zoo. In private, they probably don't really care about collector/collector transactions as long as they don't distract. >>

I guess that's as good a rationalization for doing something they say you're not allowed to as anything. >>



Not intended as a rationalization, more an explanation of how things actually work in practice.

mrpotatoheadd

Whatever you call it, I was pretty sure somebody would say that "Not allowed" actually means "It's okay as long as you don't get caught".

keets

whenever this topic comes up it seems to be divided among members into three different groups:

1. those who understand the dynamics and respect the parties involved.
2. those who are unsure and allow others to advise them on protocol.
3. those who do as they please to suit themselves.

i have long thought that our Hobby is a microcosm of society in general. that tells me that members probably conduct their personal lives and affairs according to the same guidelines as being discussed here about this delicate topic. in a nutshell it seems to come down to mutual respect and common courtesy. if anyone is uncertain about this topic, i suggest they do a little "research" at a show and come back with their results. just remember to report honestly, please.

RYK

There are a lot of variations and nuances that go along with this issue such that having iron clad rules for "trades" between collectors at coin shows impossible to ban or regulate.

1. What if the trade is negotiated before the show, and the show is the meeting place for the transaction? For that matter, what if is a sale and not a trade?

2. What if collector X is looking through collector Y's coins, just for fun, and comes across one that he needs for his collection. Collector Y has it there with him because it is a duplicate and is willing to sell it to collector X. Should they wait until they return home and transact by mail? Should they leave a tip for the closest dealer? Should collector Y be forced to offer the coin at the same price to every dealer at the show and only after they all pass can the transaction be upheld?

3. For that matter, should a collector not even express interest in another collector's coins because it could lead to a deal?

4. Should non-dealers be forbidden from bringing coins to a show unless they are assigned to be sold to dealers that have tables at the show?

Etc.

I believe that if collectors wish to transact between each other, they should be free to do so as long as they show deference to the bourse dealers and overall discretion in how they conduct their business. However, knowing collectors as I do, many will have trouble complying with these requirements, especially the vest pocket collector/dealers among us.

Coyn

The main difference between dealer and collector is profit. For the most part both buy, sell and trade. Both pay to travel to/from and enter at a show and to bring thier coins. Some pay extra for a table to display thier wares and have a location to display thier signs, others move around and buy/sell at someones table or in an "unrented zone."

I have been to shows with a table and without, the intend was the same, to buy/sell and trade.... and have fun.

A collector can spend two days at a show and basically break even (or even spend mpney), he had fun.

A dealer needs to profit to pay for his time. that's his business and also his choice.

Attempting to restrict the collectors fun so as to make this all about profit is a sign of all the things that went wrong when our hobby became "big business."

TwoSides2aCoin

They're just coins. But let's try to look at it from another perspective.

WalMart allows campers to park their RVs in their lots across the land. (well they used to, I don't have an RV and can't keep up with the Walton's), but anyway....

So let's say a group of wealthy people with RVs and nice gardens decide to pick veggies and fruit from their garden and go set up a "farmer's market" for trading vegetables and fruit" at the local WalMart. (under the blanket of "free parking in the lot). And let's say, it starts growing every weekend. Until one day, there's a big crowd around the campers and Walmart is only selling Salad Dressing and lawn chairs ....