Clemens found not guilty

wrongleg · June 18, 2012 6:02AM

Clemens

stown · June 18, 2012 6:09AM

And another wiff by Jeff Novizky.

Foo3112 · June 18, 2012 6:11AM

This should be in the Sports Talk Forum

Stooge · June 18, 2012 6:21AM

"Not guilty"....did you expect anything less? What a joke.

He is on the ballot for the Hall this fall.

Paul.

Probstein123 · June 18, 2012 6:22AM

nice use of our tax dollars

digicat · June 18, 2012 6:23AM

On a card related note, someone just bought my 1984 Fleer Update Clemens PSA 9 on another site for $140. W00t!

Probstein123 · June 18, 2012 6:27AM

how much would a signed baseball with all the jurors , clemens, his lawyer , and the judge be worth ?

MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly · June 18, 2012 6:42AM

<< how much would a signed baseball with all the jurors , clemens, his lawyer , and the judge be worth ? >>

LOL, don't forget Brian McNamee

YogiBerraFan · June 18, 2012 6:45AM

<< how much would a signed baseball with all the jurors , clemens, his lawyer , and the judge be worth ? >>

I don't know about that but a ball with the inscription "Not Guilty 2012" could be a neat novelty item.

ndleo · June 18, 2012 6:47AM

I believe that Clemens and Bonds will get in first or second ballot. They won't have to wait like McGwire and Raffy.

markmac · June 18, 2012 6:48AM

Ready for signed baseballs after the tell all book that he will write to try to get in the hall of fame that read " Sorry, I did inject human growth hormone...Roger Clemens."

SidePocket · June 18, 2012 7:47AM

If that's the best case the U.S. attorneys could present then it's simply another reason that government should be SMALLER.

digicat · June 18, 2012 8:01AM

Who's the guy in the upper right corner of that cartoon? Pujols?

TNP777 · June 18, 2012 8:05AM

I hadn't thought of Pujols. Based on the idea that the cartoon is based on admitted/caught/heavily suspected users, I was thinking Juan Gonzalez.

digicat · June 18, 2012 8:07AM

<< I hadn't thought of Pujols. Based on the idea that the cartoon is based on admitted/caught/heavily suspected users, I was thinking Juan Gonzalez. >>

I guess I could see that.

WalterSobchak · June 18, 2012 8:09AM

The Pudge Rodriguez face in the cartoon is wonderful.

vladguerrero · June 18, 2012 8:27AM

What a joke.

halosfan · June 18, 2012 8:29AM

I find it amusing that people think this started in the 90s ...

digicat · June 18, 2012 8:49AM

<< (Roger Clemens, Rafael Palmeiro, Gary Sheffield, Ivan “Pudge” Rodriguez, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds) >>

Sheff! Yeah, that's him.

OAKESY25 · June 18, 2012 12:08PM

is that supposed to be Don Mattingly?

OneBigDummy · June 18, 2012 12:44PM

I can't wait to see a 140-pound Bonds give his Hall of Fame acceptance speech!

grote15 · June 18, 2012 12:52PM

<< is that supposed to be Don Mattingly? >>

Palmeiro.

NVbaseball · June 18, 2012 4:03PM

<< I find it amusing that people think this started in the 90s ... >>

Who Thinks That?

MinorLeaguer · June 19, 2012 2:42AM

<< I find it amusing that people think this started in the 90s ... >>

I find it amazing with all this happening on his watch that Bud Selig never had to get an anal probe just like Jaime Dimon had to this week.

ken61 · June 20, 2012 12:34AM

"Clemens benefited from the reasonable-doubt standard that's applied in a federal courtroom"

That's the way our legal system works. But that being said, it's obvious Clemens was juicing from about '97. I'm hopeful the HOF voters will do the right thing and give the thumbs-down to the steroid-soaked rocket.

While doping goes way back in baseball and all sports, I don't believe steroid use became widespread in baseball until the late 90s/early 00s, at least that's the conclusion I draw from looking at my baseball sets from the late 60s until the present. I believe HGH is widely used in baseball today.

swartz1 · June 20, 2012 12:36AM

Next, we will find out that Sandusky is also...

NVbaseball · June 20, 2012 1:10AM

<< While doping goes way back in baseball and all sports, I don't believe steroid use became widespread in baseball until the late 90s/early 00s, at least that's the conclusion I draw from looking at my baseball sets from the late 60s until the present. I believe HGH is widely used in baseball today. >>

Which sets from the 60s until now put drug use on the back of the cards next to batting average and homeruns?

The conclusion I draw from everything that has been documented is that dangerous and illegal drugs were used long before Clemens started his career and long before he choose to start using them: An estimated 40% of players in 1980

digicat · June 20, 2012 1:28AM

<< The conclusion I draw from everything that has been documented is that dangerous and illegal drugs were used long before Clemens started his career and long before he choose to start using them: An estimated 40% of players in 1980 >>

Are we lumping "drugs of abuse" along with "performance enhancing drugs" now?

NVbaseball · June 20, 2012 1:32AM

Any use of illegal drugs is considered abuse according to American drug policy. Otherwise they wouldn't be illegal

The drugs Clemens used were dangerous and illegal. Just as the drugs other Hall-of-Fame players used were dangerous and illegal

digicat · June 20, 2012 1:50AM

<< Any use of illegal drugs is considered abuse according to American drug policy. Otherwise they wouldn't be illegal The drugs Clemens used were dangerous and illegal. Just as the drugs other Hall-of-Fame players used were dangerous and illegal >>

The baseball policy makes the distinction between "drugs of abuse" (recreational drugs) and drugs that are "performance enhancing."

You seem to be boiling this down to a binary "did he or did he not, use controlled substances illegally." In that argument, sniffing glue and injecting steroids are equal.

Sure, they may be equal in their illegality, but not in their "how does it enhance their performance on the field" value.

Reljac · June 20, 2012 2:41AM

<< 

<< The conclusion I draw from everything that has been documented is that dangerous and illegal drugs were used long before Clemens started his career and long before he choose to start using them: An estimated 40% of players in 1980 >>

Are we lumping "drugs of abuse" along with "performance enhancing drugs" now? >>

Makes you wonder what the percentages were during prohibition!

ndleo · June 20, 2012 3:23AM

I was listening to Dan Patrick and there is a rumor that a known roid user is already in the HOF.

digicat · June 20, 2012 3:31AM

<< I was listening to Dan Patrick and there is a rumor that a known roid user is already in the HOF. >>

Jose Canseco started the rumor. He also says that he has no knowledge of Rickey Henderson doing steroids.

So, here are the HoFers who played with Canseco:

Reggie Jackson (Oakland, 1985-1987)
Nolan Ryan (Texas, 1992-1993)
Dennis Eckersley (Oakland, 1987-1992)
Wade Boggs (Tampa Bay, 1999)
Rich Gossage (Oakland, 1992)

NSibian · June 20, 2012 3:46AM

<< 

<< I was listening to Dan Patrick and there is a rumor that a known roid user is already in the HOF. >>

Jose Canseco started the rumor. He also says that he has no knowledge of Rickey Henderson doing steroids.

So, here are the HoFers who played with Canseco:

Reggie Jackson (Oakland, 1985-1987)
Nolan Ryan (Texas, 1992-1993)
Dennis Eckersley (Oakland, 1987-1992)
Wade Boggs (Tampa Bay, 1999)
Rich Gossage (Oakland, 1992) >>

My first guess would have been the Rickey. Don't see why it has to be someone that played with Canseco. If we are just stereotyping bulkyish players who played in the 80s-90s, then you have to include Dave Winfield, Jim Rice, George Brett, Carlton Fisk (long career at demanding position) and Kirby Puckett.

If we are just throwing out random names and assume they were roided up because they had long careers then you have to also include guys like Cal Ripken, Andre Dawson, Paul Molitor and Gary Carter.

digicat · June 20, 2012 4:09AM

<< Don't see why it has to be someone that played with Canseco. >>

I'm just speculating like everyone else. Everyone Canseco has named as steroid users were past teammates, with the lone exception being A-Rod.

NVbaseball · June 20, 2012 7:16AM

<< The baseball policy makes the distinction between "drugs of abuse" (recreational drugs) and drugs that are "performance enhancing." >>

Not in 1997 when Clemens started using them. After the current MLB policy was put into place Clemens passed all his drug tests

digicat · June 20, 2012 8:16AM

<< Not in 1997 when Clemens started using them. After the current MLB policy was put into place Clemens passed all his drug tests >>

Perhaps, but the reasons for use and the effects of PEDs back then are the same as the reasons for use and the effects of PEDs of today.

What point are you trying to make with the posts you've made in this thread?

It appears to me that you are lumping PEDs along with recreational drugs and calling them equal.

NVbaseball · June 20, 2012 8:37AM

The point is that dangerous and destructive drug use in sports goes back to before Clemens (or Bonds or Canseco) were even born. Dangerous and destructive drug use in baseball goes back years before those guys even started their careers

Obviously not all drugs are equal: Controlled Substance Schedules

From what I can tell everything Victor Conte was dealing and everything reported about Clemens were all Schedule III or lower. According to Controlled Substance Act and US Department of Justice classification, those drugs do not hurt our communities as much as some of the drug use that was so heavy in baseball before Clemens (and his contemporaries) started using

digicat · June 20, 2012 8:59AM

Yes, but it's all about what that "dangerous and destructive" drug does to your performance.

stown · June 21, 2012 4:24AM

<< Yes, but it's all about what that "dangerous and destructive" drug does to your performance. >>

Heard from a retired player that back in the late 70s, after a rough night with booze and ladies, they would perk up for the next game with a bump and pills.

Dangerous and destructive? For sure. Improving their performance? According to the players, for sure.

edited to add: Oh, by the way, this player is in the HOF. True story.

JoeBanzai · June 21, 2012 5:29AM

In "Ball Four" Jim Bouton describes the use of "greenies". He said they were not performance enhancing per se, just helped you stay awake for the game after a late night out. He goes on to say that they could make you overconfident with your fastball and BOOM the batter crushes one.

There's a big difference between a drug that makes you think your a better performer and one that actually does.

Read Canseco's book, even if you don't like him. Amazing how nearly every player he named has either admitted to using steroids or has tested positive.

Every era has players who perform above the norm, look at what Aaron was able to do late in his career. Should be some EVIDENCE before labeling a player as a user.

Joe

Clemens found not guilty

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