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Clemens found not guilty

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  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
    And another wiff by Jeff Novizky.
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • This should be in the Sports Talk Forum
  • StoogeStooge Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Not guilty"....did you expect anything less? What a joke.

    He is on the ballot for the Hall this fall.

    Paul.

    Later, Paul.
  • nice use of our tax dollars
    Rick Probstein
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  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    On a card related note, someone just bought my 1984 Fleer Update Clemens PSA 9 on another site for $140. W00t!
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  • how much would a signed baseball with all the jurors , clemens, his lawyer , and the judge be worth ?
    Rick Probstein
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  • << <i>how much would a signed baseball with all the jurors , clemens, his lawyer , and the judge be worth ? >>




    LOL, don't forget Brian McNamee

  • YogiBerraFanYogiBerraFan Posts: 2,390 ✭✭


    << <i>how much would a signed baseball with all the jurors , clemens, his lawyer , and the judge be worth ? >>



    I don't know about that but a ball with the inscription "Not Guilty 2012" could be a neat novelty item.
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe that Clemens and Bonds will get in first or second ballot. They won't have to wait like McGwire and Raffy.
    Mike
  • markmacmarkmac Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    Ready for signed baseballs after the tell all book that he will write to try to get in the hall of fame that read " Sorry, I did inject human growth hormone...Roger Clemens."
  • SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭
    If that's the best case the U.S. attorneys could present then it's simply another reason that government should be SMALLER.

    "Molon Labe"

  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    Who's the guy in the upper right corner of that cartoon? Pujols?
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  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭
    I hadn't thought of Pujols. Based on the idea that the cartoon is based on admitted/caught/heavily suspected users, I was thinking Juan Gonzalez.

  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>I hadn't thought of Pujols. Based on the idea that the cartoon is based on admitted/caught/heavily suspected users, I was thinking Juan Gonzalez. >>



    I guess I could see that.
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  • The Pudge Rodriguez face in the cartoon is wonderful.
    'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.'
    -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14

    *1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
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  • vladguerrerovladguerrero Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭
    What a joke.
  • halosfanhalosfan Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭✭
    I find it amusing that people think this started in the 90s ...
    Looking for a Glen Rice Inkredible and Alex Rodriguez cards
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>(Roger Clemens, Rafael Palmeiro, Gary Sheffield, Ivan “Pudge” Rodriguez, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds) >>



    Sheff! Yeah, that's him.

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  • OAKESY25OAKESY25 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭
    is that supposed to be Don Mattingly?
  • I can't wait to see a 140-pound Bonds give his Hall of Fame acceptance speech! image
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,479 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>is that supposed to be Don Mattingly? >>



    Palmeiro.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.


  • << <i>I find it amusing that people think this started in the 90s ... >>



    Who Thinks That?
  • MinorLeaguerMinorLeaguer Posts: 497 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I find it amusing that people think this started in the 90s ... >>



    I find it amazing with all this happening on his watch that Bud Selig never had to get an anal probe just like Jaime Dimon had to this week.
  • ken61ken61 Posts: 55 ✭✭
    "Clemens benefited from the reasonable-doubt standard that's applied in a federal courtroom"

    That's the way our legal system works. But that being said, it's obvious Clemens was juicing from about '97. I'm hopeful the HOF voters will do the right thing and give the thumbs-down to the steroid-soaked rocket.

    While doping goes way back in baseball and all sports, I don't believe steroid use became widespread in baseball until the late 90s/early 00s, at least that's the conclusion I draw from looking at my baseball sets from the late 60s until the present. I believe HGH is widely used in baseball today.
  • swartz1swartz1 Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭
    Next, we will find out that Sandusky is also...


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  • << <i>While doping goes way back in baseball and all sports, I don't believe steroid use became widespread in baseball until the late 90s/early 00s, at least that's the conclusion I draw from looking at my baseball sets from the late 60s until the present. I believe HGH is widely used in baseball today. >>



    Which sets from the 60s until now put drug use on the back of the cards next to batting average and homeruns?

    The conclusion I draw from everything that has been documented is that dangerous and illegal drugs were used long before Clemens started his career and long before he choose to start using them: An estimated 40% of players in 1980
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>The conclusion I draw from everything that has been documented is that dangerous and illegal drugs were used long before Clemens started his career and long before he choose to start using them: An estimated 40% of players in 1980 >>



    Are we lumping "drugs of abuse" along with "performance enhancing drugs" now?
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  • Any use of illegal drugs is considered abuse according to American drug policy. Otherwise they wouldn't be illegal

    The drugs Clemens used were dangerous and illegal. Just as the drugs other Hall-of-Fame players used were dangerous and illegal
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>Any use of illegal drugs is considered abuse according to American drug policy. Otherwise they wouldn't be illegal The drugs Clemens used were dangerous and illegal. Just as the drugs other Hall-of-Fame players used were dangerous and illegal >>




    The baseball policy makes the distinction between "drugs of abuse" (recreational drugs) and drugs that are "performance enhancing."

    You seem to be boiling this down to a binary "did he or did he not, use controlled substances illegally." In that argument, sniffing glue and injecting steroids are equal.

    Sure, they may be equal in their illegality, but not in their "how does it enhance their performance on the field" value.
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  • << <i>

    << <i>The conclusion I draw from everything that has been documented is that dangerous and illegal drugs were used long before Clemens started his career and long before he choose to start using them: An estimated 40% of players in 1980 >>



    Are we lumping "drugs of abuse" along with "performance enhancing drugs" now? >>



    Makes you wonder what the percentages were during prohibition!
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was listening to Dan Patrick and there is a rumor that a known roid user is already in the HOF.
    Mike
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>I was listening to Dan Patrick and there is a rumor that a known roid user is already in the HOF. >>



    Jose Canseco started the rumor. He also says that he has no knowledge of Rickey Henderson doing steroids.

    So, here are the HoFers who played with Canseco:

    Reggie Jackson (Oakland, 1985-1987)
    Nolan Ryan (Texas, 1992-1993)
    Dennis Eckersley (Oakland, 1987-1992)
    Wade Boggs (Tampa Bay, 1999)
    Rich Gossage (Oakland, 1992)
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  • << <i>

    << <i>I was listening to Dan Patrick and there is a rumor that a known roid user is already in the HOF. >>



    Jose Canseco started the rumor. He also says that he has no knowledge of Rickey Henderson doing steroids.

    So, here are the HoFers who played with Canseco:

    Reggie Jackson (Oakland, 1985-1987)
    Nolan Ryan (Texas, 1992-1993)
    Dennis Eckersley (Oakland, 1987-1992)
    Wade Boggs (Tampa Bay, 1999)
    Rich Gossage (Oakland, 1992) >>



    My first guess would have been the Rickey. Don't see why it has to be someone that played with Canseco. If we are just stereotyping bulkyish players who played in the 80s-90s, then you have to include Dave Winfield, Jim Rice, George Brett, Carlton Fisk (long career at demanding position) and Kirby Puckett.

    If we are just throwing out random names and assume they were roided up because they had long careers then you have to also include guys like Cal Ripken, Andre Dawson, Paul Molitor and Gary Carter.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>Don't see why it has to be someone that played with Canseco. >>



    I'm just speculating like everyone else. Everyone Canseco has named as steroid users were past teammates, with the lone exception being A-Rod.

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  • << <i>The baseball policy makes the distinction between "drugs of abuse" (recreational drugs) and drugs that are "performance enhancing." >>



    Not in 1997 when Clemens started using them. After the current MLB policy was put into place Clemens passed all his drug tests
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>Not in 1997 when Clemens started using them. After the current MLB policy was put into place Clemens passed all his drug tests >>



    Perhaps, but the reasons for use and the effects of PEDs back then are the same as the reasons for use and the effects of PEDs of today.

    What point are you trying to make with the posts you've made in this thread?

    It appears to me that you are lumping PEDs along with recreational drugs and calling them equal.
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  • The point is that dangerous and destructive drug use in sports goes back to before Clemens (or Bonds or Canseco) were even born. Dangerous and destructive drug use in baseball goes back years before those guys even started their careers

    Obviously not all drugs are equal: Controlled Substance Schedules

    From what I can tell everything Victor Conte was dealing and everything reported about Clemens were all Schedule III or lower. According to Controlled Substance Act and US Department of Justice classification, those drugs do not hurt our communities as much as some of the drug use that was so heavy in baseball before Clemens (and his contemporaries) started using
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    Yes, but it's all about what that "dangerous and destructive" drug does to your performance.
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  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Yes, but it's all about what that "dangerous and destructive" drug does to your performance. >>



    Heard from a retired player that back in the late 70s, after a rough night with booze and ladies, they would perk up for the next game with a bump and pills.

    Dangerous and destructive? For sure. Improving their performance? According to the players, for sure.

    edited to add: Oh, by the way, this player is in the HOF. True story.
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In "Ball Four" Jim Bouton describes the use of "greenies". He said they were not performance enhancing per se, just helped you stay awake for the game after a late night out. He goes on to say that they could make you overconfident with your fastball and BOOM the batter crushes one.

    There's a big difference between a drug that makes you think your a better performer and one that actually does.

    Read Canseco's book, even if you don't like him. Amazing how nearly every player he named has either admitted to using steroids or has tested positive.

    Every era has players who perform above the norm, look at what Aaron was able to do late in his career. Should be some EVIDENCE before labeling a player as a user.

    Joe
    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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