Has anyone here dealt with Lew Lipset aka Old Judge auctions??

bobbyw8469

I won some cards that were raw in his last auction. He graded them as mid grade cards. When I got the cards in hand, I was extremely disappointed. The 1957 Ted Williams card that was described as EX has spider wrinkles and surface creases. I knew it to be no better than GD, and my PSA grade today confirmed it:



That was two auctions in a row that he has burned me on with cards. I asked opinions over on Net 54 about how to handle the situation. After listening to those guys, I decided to suck it up and keep the cards (a return would have put me on his blocked bidder list). No matter, as he blocked me anyway for merely complaining about the overgraded cards. Not like I would have bid anyway. You know what they say, burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me. I didn't want to get back in the line for the trifecta. How come it is that these "old school" collectors feel as though they should get a free pass as far as grading/customer service goes!?!?!?!?! Ok...rant over....thanks for tuning in.

halosfan

looking at that scan did you really expect to get something different?

bobbyw8469

That was not his scan. I had the card graded. He described it as EX. When I got it in hand, it had wrinkles all in the card.

fkw

looking at the card front only, even oldschool grading, that card is VG, maybe VG+

some older collector still grade the same way now as 30+ years ago, and I dont blame them. 3rd party grading has always been very conservative compared to the way cards were graded when I started.


Lipset = oldschool, but he missed this one by quite a bit IMO

waverlee

Give Lipset a break. Oldschool guys dont grade like you little crazy whippersnappers nowadays. Whats your vision gonna be when you're 105 years old?

MattyC

Won a graded PSA mantle RC from his last auction. He answered the few questions I had and shipped promptly. When going for raw, there is always the chance the terms are not mutually defined. Had he said the cards were of PSA EX quality, then I'd maybe be salty, but absent some agreed-upon standard, it's just so subjective.

bobbyw8469

I understand that Matty C. My main thing is that just because you are "old school" doesn't absolve you from any responsibility to accurately describe lots. And I also tried to log in, just to see the pics he put up, and saw that I had been blocked. Good riddance I say.

mikeschmidt

You were burned once with Lipset raw cards, and presuming you asked fellow collectors before bidding again, I'm surprised that you're surprised with this result.

bobbyw8469

No....the first time I just wrote it off as grading errors. He had a Gehrig that looked good, but the grader says it was "cut short". Not trimmed, but smaller sized from the factory. This was the 2nd time.......

WalterSobchak

For what it's worth, that's a pretty nice looking PSA 2.

Wondo

I like Lew. I don't agree with his grading, but he is a good guy and a hobbiest with a VAST amount of knowledge. I have bought and sold a ton in his auctions.

edited to add: I have returned items to Lew; did you request a return / refund?

Ironmanfan

I would have returned prior to even submitting it to PSA...you knew what PSA was going to come back with once you saw the card

bobbyw8469

I decided to suck it up. I didn't want to get blocked, just in case I ever had a change of heart and ever wanted to bid on his auctions again. I would have stuck with graded cards only however. Now that I am blocked, it doesn't matter. I wish I had sent it back now.

Wondo

<< <i>I decided to suck it up. I didn't want to get blocked, just in case I ever had a change of heart and ever wanted to bid on his auctions again. I would have stuck with graded cards only however. Now that I am blocked, it doesn't matter. I wish I had sent it back now. >>



Bobby,

I put that under the category of "Thinking too hard". Nothing personal here, but you bought a card you weren't satisfied with, then flamed a seller without investigating reasonable recourse. I admit I am biased, but let's be responsible here, please.

Mickey71

I'm not really understanding what's the deal here. My 1st question......Was there a scan at all? Because if there was; it is easy to see that it"s a low grade card for sure. 2nd thing....no PSA grading needed to see that that has been loved on too much. I would have asked for a refund...then if I didn't get one I would have done what you're doing except that the card would be raw. 3rd ...overall observation---Lew must be on crack to say that's EX and would make me question everything about his business. I wouldn't buy from him at all. Although, none of this really matters because Bobby did not ask for a refund. It's possible it was a typo mistake or something unless he called Lipset and they said it was EX. I think Bobby's okay to complain if auction houses are saying that's EX.

bobbyw8469

He had scans. They were of poor quality and you couldn't enlarge them. Not that it mattered anyway, but him blocking me on his auctions is STUPID. It is HIS fault for his weak grading. Why is he getting pissed at his customers!?!? That is almost like the guy on the freeway the other day who refused to acknowledge the YIELD sign that was directed his way and decides to flip me the bird when he almost ran into my car!

Mickey71

Bobby.....when it's said and done I agree with you. Lame grading by this Lipset character. Blocking you from auctions is also low in my book. I'm not a heavy hitter; but I've now taken myself off the potential customer list. I will not buy from someone like that.

itzagoner

after some of what i've observed lately in low or mid-grade "old school" PSA cards in "old school" PSA holders, it would not have surprised me to see that card in a VG-EX 4 or even an EX 5 holder.....some of the grading standards were erratically different 15 or 20 years ago.

maybe some of these "old school" dealers just won't let go of the concept.

bobbyw8469

<< <i>maybe some of these "old school" dealers just won't let go of the concept. >>



He is the only "old school" dealer I know....if there are others, maybe ya'll can enlighten me. The one card show I attend locally has a seller named Floyd Soeder. He is an absolute pleasure to deal with (He sells under the name fscards1)......I can picture this Lipset character setting up at shows pushing his 1953 Topps commons in PSA 2 range for $50 a card.....

Wondo

Did Lew block you before or after you posted here? I checked the Net54 thread and I don't see anything about you potentially being blocked: Net54 Thread

In fact - most folks advised you to contact Lew and voice a complaint. Am I missing something?

itzagoner

<< <i>

<< <i>maybe some of these "old school" dealers just won't let go of the concept. >>



He is the only "old school" dealer I know....if there are others, maybe ya'll can enlighten me. The one card show I attend locally has a seller named Floyd Soeder. He is an absolute pleasure to deal with (He sells under the name fscards1)......I can picture this Lipset character setting up at shows pushing his 1953 Topps commons in PSA 2 range for $50 a card..... >>



yeah, i watch fscards auctions, i think i bought from him before.....but, the point i'm trying to make is that classifying card condition is still just opinion based, and the terms Very Good or Excellent have such a broad range of possibilities within the description, so Lipset must be living in the past, now you know......we know that PSA grading has allowed us to interpret technical issues more accurately when viewing raw card examples.

now answer me this question: how did you feel on those occasions where you purchased a card which was classified as Excellent and it turned out to be A LOT better than that?

bobbyw8469

<< <i>how did you feel on those occasions where you purchased a card which was classified as Excellent and it turned out to be A LOT better than that? >>



My luck is not that good.....I HAVE had cards that an auction house say was trimmed come back graded. That always makes me smile!

itzagoner

<< <i>

<< <i>how did you feel on those occasions where you purchased a card which was classified as Excellent and it turned out to be A LOT better than that? >>



My luck is not that good.....I HAVE had cards that an auction house say was trimmed come back graded. That always makes me smile! >>



lol, as always it reverts back to someone else's interpretation, not just yours.

which means that none of this really makes a bit of sense until you have at least two opinions. then it makes even less sense.

BaltimoreYankee

I remember the name Lew Lipset as a long time hobbyist from back in the '80s'. That card is no way near EX. In the '80's, it would be described as VG with creases.

I would have returned the card and not worried about being blocked from future purchases since I would not buy anything from him again after that. There are plenty of dealers and plenty of cards out there.

vintagechris

The problem is, it has become uncool to question someones grading, even when it is egregious. Grading is subject blah blah blah. The problem is, these people aren't thinking that when they assign a grade. They are thinking what is the highest possible grade I can assign and not have it returned. People overgrade to make more money, not because grading is subjective. Yes grading is subjective but not when we are talking about a card assigned an EX grade that is actually GOOD.

scmavl

I recently bought a bunch of raw Chipper Jones cards from quite a few members here and on Net54. While most have been as described, one lot described as "all mint, likely PSA 10s" had dinged corners on most of the cards. Maybe a couple of 9s but mostly 7s, I'd think. Bummer, but not worth making a stink over.

KbKards

I won some cards that were raw in his last auction. He graded them as mid grade cards. When I got the cards in hand, I was extremely disappointed. The 1957 Ted Williams card that was described as EX has spider wrinkles and surface creases. I knew it to be no better than GD, and my PSA grade today confirmed it:

Your statement above greatly deviates from how the lot was described in the auction listing. Mid grade cards, Williams EX? Where are you seeing this? If you're going to libel someone it's best to stick to the facts and not embellish your story.
http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/mickey-mantle-willie-mays/164/#a

As somebody said previously the card is better looking than the technical grade of PSA 2 that PSA gave it. The card was described as VG-EX and would probably be described as a VG to VG-EX range card by almost all raw collectors and dealers trying to sell the card. To make such a big deal about such a small difference of opinion in grade is surprising given the experience you had with selling a certain 1955 Bowman Mays.

Running the certs on the other 2 cards next to Williams shows that the Mantle Lew called GD-VG graded a 3.5 by PSA. No complaints on that one right? The Aaron graded a VG-EX. Pretty close and probably due to centering as you can obviously see in picture.

mccardguy1

I have been a collector since 1974 and have bought and sold cards since my high school days (graduated in 1982) and I can tell you the grading standards from back then are not the grading standards of today. I think any old school dealer has to learn this simple fact and there are some who will not acknowledge the standards have changed. Without access to the original Lipset auction I cannot say anything about how this card was graded by him but if it was implied this card was EX then we all know that is wrong. Thinking back to the old days, I dont know if this card would have even been called EX back then either.

The onus is on the buyer in this instances. If the seller had a scan and it wasnt clear, a simple email asking for a better scan or a detailed description would have been in order before bidding. Once the card was received and it was not as advertised, it should have been sent back right away for a refund and not sent to PSA to confirm "what you already knew". To come on a message board and complain about a seller but yet not allow him to make the situation right is, in my opinion, just not right and honestly, I would have blocked you as well. Why would the seller give you an opportunity to complain about him for a third time without giving him an opportunity to make the previous transactions right is beyond me?

Lipset is a hobby legend and, while this alone does not give him a pass in grading his cards, he should have been given an opportunity to rectify the transaction instead of being hung out to dry on not one but at least two separate message boards.

mccardguy1

<< <i>I won some cards that were raw in his last auction. He graded them as mid grade cards. When I got the cards in hand, I was extremely disappointed. The 1957 Ted Williams card that was described as EX has spider wrinkles and surface creases. I knew it to be no better than GD, and my PSA grade today confirmed it:

Your statement above greatly deviates from how the lot was described in the auction listing. Mid grade cards, Williams EX? Where are you seeing this? If you're going to libel someone it's best to stick to the facts and not embellish your story.
http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/mickey-mantle-willie-mays/164/#a

As somebody said previously the card is better looking than the technical grade of PSA 2 that PSA gave it. The card was described as VG-EX and would probably be described as a VG to VG-EX range card by almost all raw collectors and dealers trying to sell the card. To make such a big deal about such a small difference of opinion in grade is surprising given the experience you had with selling a certain 1955 Bowman Mays.

Running the certs on the other 2 cards next to Williams shows that the Mantle Lew called GD-VG graded a 3.5 by PSA. No complaints on that one right? The Aaron graded a VG-EX. Pretty close and probably due to centering as you can obviously see in picture. >>




Wow...I guess the full story needed to be told and not just the part that made Lipset look bad. I think we know now why the card(s) were not returned as the buyer actually got a decent deal but only chose to cry and whine about the worst card in the lot that was actually graded accurately by the seller!

Anyone wanna buy a 55 Mays?

bobbyw8469

<< <i>Wow...I guess the full story needed to be told and not just the part that made Lipset look bad. I think we know now why the card(s) were not returned as the buyer actually got a decent deal but only chose to cry and whine about the worst card in the lot that was actually graded accurately by the seller! >>



VG/EX, EX........same difference. I couldn't get in to see it, as I had been BLOCKED by Mr. Lipset. You couldn't enlarge the pics, and he makes no mention of the Spider wrinkles........I did nothing wrong here....



<< <i>Anyone wanna buy a 55 Mays? >>



You mean the one that now resides in a BVG '8' holder?!?!?! You want some ketchup with your crow??

bobbyw8469

Bottom line, just because your a "legend" and "old school" doesn't relieve you of basic customer service skills or a complete disregard for honest grading. I am not alone with this voice. If you google just "lew lipset blocked" or something to that effect, you will see numerous stories of a similar nature.

WinPitcher

rarely do we get the full story.....

bobbyw8469

<< <i>rarely do we get the full story..... >>



You want the full story?? I paid for a lot that was grossly overgraded. I got lucky the Aaron graded as all, as it looked trimmed. I kept a lot I probably should have returned. I got blocked from his auctions. That is pretty much it - no hidden gems here!

mccardguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>Wow...I guess the full story needed to be told and not just the part that made Lipset look bad. I think we know now why the card(s) were not returned as the buyer actually got a decent deal but only chose to cry and whine about the worst card in the lot that was actually graded accurately by the seller! >>



VG/EX, EX........same difference. I couldn't get in to see it, as I had been BLOCKED by Mr. Lipset. You couldn't enlarge the pics, and he makes no mention of the Spider wrinkles........I did nothing wrong here....



<< <i>Anyone wanna buy a 55 Mays? >>



You mean the one that now resides in a BVG '8' holder?!?!?! You want some ketchup with your crow?? >>



VG/EX, EX........same difference. WHAT????? there is a difference and your expectations of these grades as a raw card might be part of the problem. I ask you to look up raw card grading standards in any Beckett magazine and I think you will see that, using their grading scale for RAW cards, this card is at the bottem end of VG/EX and maybe should be more VG. To say its grossly overgraded I think you are completely wrong as this is a borderline card for the grade. You might want to check out the raw grading scale before you tell someone he is off base with his grades.

As for the picture in the auction, You would have to be blind not to see that the picture is representing a card with rounded and layering corners. There is no way that card, as represented, is anything other than a 4 AT BEST. A simple email to the seller would hopefully have shed light on the other issues on the card, which of course you failed to do. I guess it is easier to place blame on someone else than to take responsibility for your inactions. Yes, Inactions! You failed to ask questions to clarify if you really wanted the lot and you failed to send the cards back for a refund if you were dissatisfied. You chose to take the hit and keep the card yet you come to the message boards and whine about what someone else did. I guess the other cards in the lot graded out better than expected and you were unable to return just one card so you were stuck with it. I noticed you were not whining about the grades you got on the other cards in the lot so I guess Lipset graded those accuratly.

As for eating crow, there is none left to eat as it was all forced on you with the whole Mays debacle and you might be fed another helping of it after this.

mccardguy1

<< <i>Bottom line, just because your a "legend" and "old school" doesn't relieve you of basic customer service skills or a complete disregard for honest grading. I am not alone with this voice. If you google just "lew lipset blocked" or something to that effect, you will see numerous stories of a similar nature. >>



You got to give the man the opportunity to provide customer service skills but you never did that. So again, dont come on here and whine about his lack of customer service skills when you never gave him the chance.

1980scollector

VG-EX is not the same as EX for the record.

bobbyw8469

<< <i>VG-EX is not the same as EX for the record >>



And there is no way in h**l a card with wrinkles and creases should be graded a VG/EX.

mccardguy1

Again, please research the raw grading scale and verify the criteria for VG/EX. Do a bit of homework on this one.

vintageinvestments

I have won some lots from Lew in the past. I do not think he is a bad guy, but his grading is all over the place. I won a nice 1947-66 Exhibit set a few years ago and he described most as EXMT-NRMT. I had many 8s and the Mantle POR I sent to SGC and received a 92. Thinking it was MINT to GEM MINT I resubmitted to PSA for an 8. The Boog Powell came back a PSA 10 as only one graded a 10. However, the last group I won from him was overgraded about 2 grades across the board.

Cheers,
Jason

bobbyw8469

<< <i>Again, please research the raw grading scale and verify the criteria for VG/EX. Do a bit of homework on this one. >>



Scan included at top of thread. How about do a little homework yourself.

KbKards

You want the full story?? I paid for a lot that was grossly overgraded. I got lucky the Aaron graded as all, as it looked trimmed. I kept a lot I probably should have returned. I got blocked from his auctions. That is pretty much it - no hidden gems here!

You just keep digging the spin hole deeper and deeper. You say now that you thought the Aaron was trimmed and previously you said the Williams was no better than GD. Yet you still decided to roll the dice and send them to PSA for grading rather than contacting Lew to work out your issue with the cards. The more you argue in cases like this, the Mantle, and Jordan the worse you look.

bobbyw8469

<< <i>The more you argue in cases like this, the Mantle, and Jordan the worse you look. >>



Look Bub. I am not the only voice of dissident here. Do a search under Lew Lipset and see what comes up. I didn't want to return the lot because I didn't want to get blocked (which I wound up getting blocked anyway). The Jordan rookie was a PSA graded card that the buyer didn't like - I sent it back to PSA under their "grade guarantee" which PSA affirmed the grade. I don't work for PSA - I submit cards the same as you do. None of your statements hold water there KBcards.....

eyebone

mr. lipset overgraded this card (and probably many others) and may have also tried to "conceal" this in a poor quality scan. i am no apologist for bobby, but methinks he is more the victim here than mr. lipset.

eyebone

royalbrett

<< <i>If you google just "lew lipset blocked" or something to that effect, you will see numerous stories of a similar nature. >>



Looks like the homework was not completed before bidding.

mccardguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>If you google just "lew lipset blocked" or something to that effect, you will see numerous stories of a similar nature. >>



Looks like the homework was not completed before bidding. >>



Where is the like button?? LOL

bobbyw8469

<< <i>Looks like the homework was not completed before bidding >>



That's right. I don't research people until I have a problem. And I do that to see if I am the only one who has been affected or if others have experienced what I have experieced as well. In this case, I was not alone.....

churchiscool

like i said on n54...knowing his rep and being burned before you should've requested bigger scans before the auction was up. after it was over you still could've sent it back for a refund. you chose not to, not sure why you're still b@#ching about it.

bobbyw8469

I never complained before. I posed a question on how to handle a situation on another board. I chose not to because I didn't want to get blocked (even though I probably wouldn't have ever bid again anyway)....well, I got blocked anyway. All because he overgrades his cards (apparently "old school" dealers are allowed to do that). To me it is cut and dry. Not so sure where the confusion lies.

WinPitcher

Bobby could you provide a link to all the other stories?
I just googled Lew Lipset blocks, and all I get is your
thread here and one other from Net 54.

I didn't search 10 pages mind you just 3.


Thanks

Maurice

"Lot 164. 1957 Topps Aaron, Mantle, Williams. The 95-Mantle is gd-vg with a light corner crease, 20-Aaron is excellent and the 1-Williams (vg-ex)."

Lipset graded the Mantle a 2.5. The PSA grade is 3.5.
Lipset graded the Aaron a 5. The PSA grade is 4.
Lipset graded the Williams a 4. The PSA grade is 2.

Lipset's raw grades for the 3 cards total 11.5.
The PSA grades for the 3 cards total 9.5.

That's a 0.67 grade difference per card on average. That's "a complete disregard for honest grading"?

Earlier you stated "VG/EX, EX........same difference". Well that's a full grade difference and you're downplaying it as no big deal. So a full grade difference isn't a big deal but a 0.67 grade difference is dishonest grading?

churchiscool

lew has his share of critics, and it's either his way or the highway. he doesn't care how you or the tpg grades cards...cuz presumably he's lew lipset. anyways i have some other hobby friends that are also blocked or refuse to do business with him. in his last auction i was interested in a few of the cracker jack lots, but i knew to request big scans when he graded them EX+. when i got them they look more like vg+ so i passed.

do a search of lipset on the n54 board you'll find more hits.