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Sh!t hits the fan, economy crashed, the dollar isn't worth what it is printed on...

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  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,792 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's called a printing press, and yes it will keep spitting out money as necessary. Members of the eurozone do not have the luxury of individually printing themselves out of financial trouble.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • rpwrpw Posts: 235 ✭✭


    << <i>I have 57 spam cans of 640 rounds of 7.62 x 39 and still buying >>


    I'm a big fan of the Yugo M-67. Slightly corrosive but cleaner than the Tula, although I do have some of that as well as I buy whatever is on sale.
    image

    I also like the RPK and it's variants over the AKM. A much more robust rifle than the AKM and that's saying something.
    Top: Yugo M-72 Zastava. Bottom: Romanian AES-10B.
    I also see a delicious irony in the fact that these weapons, built to destroy democracy and capitalism, may one day have the potential to restore them.
    image
    image
    imageimage Small Size National Bank Note Type Set $5-$100
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Government debt is what drives nations to fiscal ruin

    Actually, it is mismanagement of Government debt which drives nations to fiscal ruin.

    Just like, say, Donald Trump can have debt, that doesn't mean he's heading for fiscal ruin. er...maybe a better example is available.image
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    doesn't that M72 have a lot of recoil that affects accuracy? (not in prone position)


    and I'm with EagleEye. It's not debt, it's the mismanagement.


    I also do not believe that the US has any better chance to pay back their debt than Germany, for instance.

    On one day, we over tax corporations to the point they go offshore. On another day, we need to lower taxes to bring in more revenue from the increased growth. On no days does anyone talk about how we tried lowering taxes under Bush but we still didn't have the growth we needed, and that there is nothing to compel over taxed corporations to spend money saved from lower taxes. On the other days no one talks is finding a solution that works. We had some good times after WWII. The peace dividend. We had the ability to do what needed to be done and were paid for it. Now? We can't expect Apple to sell that many iTVs.... then return that foreign earned money back to the US to be taxed. We have such a huge economy and huge debt that we need multiple innovations that can't be made offshore or we need some services that are sold from US to offshore, or something that keeps the revenues and profits in the US borders.

    Then there is the foreign oil thing. I get the concept of using their oil first, then getting rich selling our oil. But we're not going to last that long before we run into debt trouble. Alternative energy, even natural gas a/k/a Picken's Plan, would be good with me.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    Here we go again...always with the steel image
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    this is a SHTF thread.... it happens imageimage (obvious reference intended)

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,792 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent essay on current US economic status and where it will lead:

    Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It will not be possible to continue to flood the bond markets with $1.5 trillion in new issues each year


    let me finish that sentence


    if growth picks up in other parts of the world and investments there look more attractive.

    if growth doesn't pick up and new money is not there to buy the crappy paper.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • racecap97racecap97 Posts: 58 ✭✭
    I would say that if it gets to a REAL SHTF situation you better have a water supply or a way to filter water if your on the move and i'm quite surprised that no one has mentioned that as of yet. The silver and gold will do you very little good if any when the SHTF. People will not want your metal for their food when the metal won't do them any good either. You can't eat, drink, shoot, or live it it. I would try to get you and your family 2 months worth of water and food stashed away which is not hard or expensive. I'd have some basic camping supplies as well. Then work on a means of protecting it and your family (guns and ammo) I'd also recomend .22 rifle as ammo is super cheap, the gun is super cheap, easy to use and accurate. Many people here will disagree because of the size of the round but I guarantee you that if you shoot someone with it they won't like it. You should be somewhat safe if you don't have to go outside your home for anything. If it lasts longer than 2mo we're all pretty screwed no matter how you look at it. What you will want to hoard to barter with is stuff that people can use in a SHTF situation such as, food, TP, cigarrettes, alchohol, tampons, stuff like that. People don't need metal to survive.

    Where the metals come in is after its done hitting the fan and there is a new monetary system put into place. Then you can trade your silver and gold in for whatever the new money or whatever takes its place will be. Then you still have "money" that you've saved when others may have none if the dollar were to become completely worthless and thats all they had.

    To make a quick recap and small point, 2mo of food and water are a good idea even if you don't think the S is hitting the fan. A natural disaster can hit anywhere and is probably more likely than the SHTF. You don't want to rely on the government or any other entity to take care of you in a natural disaster. Look at the way FEMA and the government handled hurricane Katrina. Thats scary!!!
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INTERESTING WWII HAWAII NOTES.
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If SHTF do you want to be known as the guy that pays for everything with gold or silver? >>



    You can also pay with lead, thats why I have both image
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sinclair seems to think the shat is already making contact with the fan blades.
    We are currently circling the drain.

    Sinclair
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,963 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Sinclair seems to think the shat is already making contact with the fan blades.
    We are currently circling the drain.

    Sinclair >>



    Mixed metaphors, but an excellent article.

    peacockcoins

  • tneigtneig Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭
    I've learned so much here and you are quite right! In a total meltdown, you need other things. Secrecy of PMs is top concern. It may take a bit to find someone or place to safely barter the PMs. Gold is still king, but you need paper as well. You need to have the sidearm in hand, with your buddy and shotgun standing behind you. We see this on a micro-scale on the news all the time. Community smashed by tornados. No water, elec, sewage and folks looking to loot. You could be on your own for a few days standing ground. I fully agree on the 22! Most inexperience or averager shooters would have more hit success with a 22 than a high powered rifle, and shot placement is king. Having the other rifle is also a good idea as well if the user can handle it. I keep 2 boxes of gallon waters in the basement and just ordered 5 gall mylar bags. They pack away nice, and when fill up before the water goes out. Practical space saving comprise of both.

    Funny, where I am now. I got into learning this by buying silver dimes in prepping. Now full circle back to stacking paper too!



    << <i>I would say that if it gets to a REAL SHTF situation you better have a water supply or a way to filter water if your on the move and i'm quite surprised that no one has mentioned that as of yet. The silver and gold will do you very little good if any when the SHTF. People will not want your metal for their food when the metal won't do them any good either. You can't eat, drink, shoot, or live it it. I would try to get you and your family 2 months worth of water and food stashed away which is not hard or expensive. I'd have some basic camping supplies as well. Then work on a means of protecting it and your family (guns and ammo) I'd also recomend .22 rifle as ammo is super cheap, the gun is super cheap, easy to use and accurate. Many people here will disagree because of the size of the round but I guarantee you that if you shoot someone with it they won't like it. You should be somewhat safe if you don't have to go outside your home for anything. If it lasts longer than 2mo we're all pretty screwed no matter how you look at it. What you will want to hoard to barter with is stuff that people can use in a SHTF situation such as, food, TP, cigarrettes, alchohol, tampons, stuff like that. People don't need metal to survive.

    Where the metals come in is after its done hitting the fan and there is a new monetary system put into place. Then you can trade your silver and gold in for whatever the new money or whatever takes its place will be. Then you still have "money" that you've saved when others may have none if the dollar were to become completely worthless and thats all they had.

    To make a quick recap and small point, 2mo of food and water are a good idea even if you don't think the S is hitting the fan. A natural disaster can hit anywhere and is probably more likely than the SHTF. You don't want to rely on the government or any other entity to take care of you in a natural disaster. Look at the way FEMA and the government handled hurricane Katrina. Thats scary!!! >>

    COA
  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    Everyone has a different take on responses to shtf situations but my thinking is similar to Recap's.

    My experience comes from hurricane related situations. Two compelling experiences stand out. One where a cat 4 was headed to Houston and a well followed local weathercaster told the 3.5 mill people to evacuate...total chaos and you couldn't use the public highways, they were impassable because of broken cars, dead people in their cars, cars out of gas, people wrecking into each other and hundreds of situations that translate to "You ain't goin' anywhere.". The other time was post hurricane (a different one) where utilities were out for a couple of weeks. When the utilities came back on and the gas pumps and atms came back on, I saw a number of fist fights from people trying to get gas and money. Amazing how primitive folks become. Remember that this veneer of civility most folks have wears off quickly in a shtf situation and there will not be any public services like police or ambulances; consider being prepared to shelter in place for the short term.

    Water is essential but unfortunately, we have such abundant and casual access to it that we take it for granted. You will need to flush the toilet when the water supply gets compromised. You will need to drink water and will need it for cooking, coffee, cleaning, growing veggies, ten thousand other things. A home cistern is a good idea for that; just a couple of 500 gal tanks hooked up to your house gutter should keep you for a few weeks at 10 gal/pp/day and pray for rain. You'll need some water purification tabs or a way to boil the water for cooking and drinking. This doesn't require a shtf situation to find yourself in need of water, it should be part of your very basic planning.

    Food is good too. Like Recap states, folks aren't going to trade you food for silver, they are going to want to trade the food for cigs, alcohol, paper products, and hygiene/meds like asprin, benedril, tooth paste, tampons, soap, mosquito spray, stuff that people need...nobody needs silver in a shtf situation. EZPZ if you stock up first and it doesn't really cost much to get ready. Oh yes and most critical, batteries and a radio that gets both kinds of music...country and western. It is amazing how good country music sounds when you're sitting in the garage with the door open, watching the world stand still and it's 100 degrees and there isn't a breeze to be had and you're drinking cold water and talking to your honey and reading a book and you've been doing this for two weeks...it's actually quite comfortable. Having a dog or two is good too as they can hear and smell about a million times better than we do so nobody is going to come up on you without your knowing about it well before hand. The coolest thing is that it's quiet, you can hear the grass grow. If you have prepared properly, you shouldn't have to go out too much and that will keep the risk factors down considerably.

    The .22 long rifle is an excellent weapon at short distances but the round falls off pretty fast. The nice thing about a .22 is if you throw a 4x scope on it, you can hit a dime at a couple of hundred feet. Translate that dime to a critical organ shot and you have a quiet, medium distance round that will definitely compromise your attackers ability to harm you or your family. If you start banging out .30 cal rounds, everyone is going to know about it but with a .22, not so much because the report is not very distinct and easily reflected. The other nice thing is the .22 rounds are cheap as are the rifles. You can put a lot of rounds down range for not many buks. With a little practice, it won't take long till you can hit that dime.

    Generally, if you run around trying to trade silver or gold for essential things then I wouldn't think that it would take very long before word gets out that you have them. Seems like metal would be either a very early game or a late game bonus but not so much during the shtf situation once it gets going. Having a stash of metal is no substitute for being prepared and having a plan.

    JMHO

    Got CASH?


  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,304 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Beats me... wish I had a working crystal ball. >>

    image buy food and lead
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    Personally, I believe in a real SHTF situation, gold and silver would have much value. I don't know if any of you watch the show Jericho but I believe with will be more of what you will see in a SHTF situation. Groups banding together that have skills to support one another and the arms to protect what they have. It will be a true barter system where those items required to sustain life will be in demand. Skills, food, guns & ammo shelter and water will be in demand. Silver and gold will only be useful to make bullets.
  • racecap97racecap97 Posts: 58 ✭✭


    << <i>Water is essential but unfortunately, we have such abundant and casual access to it that we take it for granted. You will need to flush the toilet when the water supply gets compromised. You will need to drink water and will need it for cooking, coffee, cleaning, growing veggies, ten thousand other things. A home cistern is a good idea for that; just a couple of 500 gal tanks hooked up to your house gutter should keep you for a few weeks at 10 gal/pp/day and pray for rain. You'll need some water purification tabs or a way to boil the water for cooking and drinking. This doesn't require a shtf situation to find yourself in need of water, it should be part of your very basic planning. >>



    The only thing I would disagree with here is the flushing of the toilet part. If the SHTF the camping supplies would come in handy, especially the shovel. Plastic bags laying around the house, ect...and the bathroom problems are solved without water.

    For about $200 or less depending on where you get the supplies a persona can get 2 55gal barrels for water storage. The water will last 5yrs before it needs changed out so its low maintenance and at 2gal per person per day will last 1 person almost 2mo and can be stored in a relatively small area because the barrels can be stacked on top of each other if they need to be. Water is always overlooked but is actually the most important thing a person can have. Just think, how long can you survive without water................now compare that to how long you can survive without food. image
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INTERESTING WWII HAWAII NOTES.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just think, how long can you survive without water

    Lake Powell would be a popular spot. Time to buy land in Page. All them folks in Vegas and Phoenix gonna be thirsty.image
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • racecap97racecap97 Posts: 58 ✭✭
    If the SHTF people won't have enough gas to get to lake Powell. You would also need the filtration system when you get there and a way to transport the water to where you need it. You would have to have a permanent location close enough to ride a bike, walk, ect......
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INTERESTING WWII HAWAII NOTES.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thats why I said to buy land there.

    http://cityofpage.org/
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    That's what nice where I at. I have the Columbia River running past my house and have everything from desert, to farmland, to forest, to peaks with snow all within less than 10 miles.
  • racecap97racecap97 Posts: 58 ✭✭


    << <i>Thats why I said to buy land there.

    http://cityofpage.org/ >>




    image
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INTERESTING WWII HAWAII NOTES.
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,304 ✭✭✭✭✭
    but we got more paper and ink to do more printing and the economy is good (for someone)
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    I noticed on the new last night about Greece that in some areas, they were already using the barter system and issuing their own script. There was no mention about using gold or silver to trade for anything.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,012 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I noticed on the new last night about Greece that in some areas, they were already using the barter system and issuing their own script. There was no mention about using gold or silver to trade for anything. >>



    in some areas they probably need to do that anyway.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,285 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A good deed bears fruit and pays interest. This is something money can't buy and bullets can't stop.
  • racecap97racecap97 Posts: 58 ✭✭
    Very true!
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INTERESTING WWII HAWAII NOTES.
  • racecap97racecap97 Posts: 58 ✭✭


    << <i>I noticed on the new last night about Greece that in some areas, they were already using the barter system and issuing their own script. There was no mention about using gold or silver to trade for anything. >>



    That was tried with the liberty dollars, and they were even backed by metal. Didn't work out so well.
    ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INTERESTING WWII HAWAII NOTES.
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I noticed on the new last night about Greece that in some areas, they were already using the barter system and issuing their own script. There was no mention about using gold or silver to trade for anything. >>



    That was tried with the liberty dollars, and they were even backed by metal. Didn't work out so well. >>



    You mean because the federal government stepped in and shut them down? Beside, you are comparing two totally different scenarios.
  • mrpaseomrpaseo Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭


    << <i>even in a SHTF scenario dollars will be the widely accepted unit of trade, just not worth very much. People will always need a common denominator when trading with each other and not that many of them hold metals. Barter will be the preference but dollars will continue to be the "money." Dollars will never be worth less than the paper they are printed on unless they are officially replaced with a new currency.

    If your only reason for holding metals is to be prepared for the end of the world, you are wasting your money buying them. When you need them they will be of no value.

    If you're holding them for a near end of the world situation, you would be better off stacking cans of spam. Metals are a store of value, not life support. >>



    Good points, though I am interested in adding PMs to my savings portfolio I posed the "End of days" question to provoke conversation and gain incite on others opinions in regards to PMs.

    image
  • mrpaseomrpaseo Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭
    I do appreciate the responses on this thread and the fact that it has yet to turn into a flame war. Thank you all, I have learned a lot and the wheels are turning.

    Ray
  • Although it would be preferable to own gold/silver rather than paper dollars should the dollar become worthless and the "SHTF" happens I can't say I own PMs for that reason. In those circumstance the lawlessness and misery would be still extremely terrible. If I was sure that was a likely outcome then I would be looking to move to a different part of the world.

    The most likely scenario would be a long term Inflationary period where the dollar would inflate at 5-20% per year over a number of years, kinda like what Mexico and other countries have seen at times. PMs would be very valuable in that scenario, not in a Mad Max type scenario.
  • BBNBBN Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I noticed on the new last night about Greece that in some areas, they were already using the barter system and issuing their own script. There was no mention about using gold or silver to trade for anything. >>



    That was tried with the liberty dollars, and they were even backed by metal. Didn't work out so well. >>



    You mean because the federal government stepped in and shut them down? . >>



    Let's not forget that the man who started the company was trying to use these coins he minted as money and telling 19 year olds at cash registers that it was "a new coin." He even recorded these instances and put them on youtube.

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  • dontippetdontippet Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Answering the OPs question, I'd still be leaning towards 90% silver coins because they are of known purity and weight. >>



    I agree. 90% would be the best way to trade. It wouldn't take long for everyone to understand the simple rules of 90%.
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