An article for Gecko

cohodk

Phil, this is what I was trying to explain to you. Read the comments and see what the populace thinks. Like I said many times, be prepared.

As Costs Soar, Taxpayers Target Pensions of Cops and Firefighters .

piecesofme

You must've not gotten the memo. Unfortunately, all Phil can do is read what's on CU now

gsa1fan

Shame what idiots think! When the city's are burning and gangs rule the streets~ Who ya gonna call???

mkman123

He got the ban hammer? No wonder it was so quiet.

cohodk

<< <i>Shame what idiots think! When the city's are burning and gangs rule the streets~ Who ya gonna call??? >>



You are going to call those employed, not the ones retiring on $95k/yr.

Maybe cut those pensions and use that money to hire another cop?

Downtown1974

cohodk, its already happening here in Massachusetts. In order to retire with a full pension (80%), you work until age 60. They just passed this in January.

Defined benefits pensions are not sustainable. Im sorry, but its true. I do not expect it when I retire, that is why I started my own 457b when I started my job.

USMC_6115

Downtown1974, I think here in Mass it is slightly different. We pay into our retirement system. The percentage of our input depends on when you started and it rises every few years for new hires. At least that is the way it is done in my union. Also, vacation time, sick time, and overtime are NOT calculated in our retirement. I don't feel we are anywhere near a problem as are other states.. as far as my 457b, I would cash it in for PMs if I could before Obama gets a hold of it... JMO

gsa1fan

Trying make a bad guy out of a employee that was promised a pension his whole career is just unacceptable in my book.
I hear Romney is the king of hatchet men & corporate take overs. God help us ALL!

Note; I'm not a fan of current WH occupant either

cohodk

I dont think anyone is trying to "take away" pensions, just trying to make them reasonable.

secondrepublic

The maximum Social Security benefit someone can get -- after working their entire life and paying the most possible into the system -- is about $2,500 per month. Link. That works out to $30k a year. And very few people have any private pension anymore. It seems to me that government employees shouldn't get any more than the Social Security amount the rest of us get. It's ridiculous for them to get $70k or $90k or more in retirement.

perkdog

Firefighters schedule is an absolute JOKE, sure they respond to fires on ocasion and risk their lives but not anymore than police or corrections officers do on a daily basis. I believe in most cases Fireman work 24 hours on, 24 hours off 24 Hours on THEN have 4 days off. Firemans main job is medical calls nowadays but Im not sure why when you have ambulences responding too, gotta love when there is a fender bender with no injuries and you see the fire truck respond and stand around when the Police take care of the traffic and the Ambulence responders check the victims out.

Yes I am knocking the Fire Depts but not saying they dont have a dangerous job, restructering their job description and schedules would make a difference for starters. I am a corrections officer and I will be the first to say that Im VERY lucky to have my job, NOBODY forces me to do it, I do it and deal with the BS and danger because of the benefits and money. I do not complain nor do I think of myself as a public servant, Cops, Fireman and Corrections Officers all think the public owes them something, I do not and have the attitude of " Im very Lucky" and to my bretheren if I hear you complain then I say go to the private sector and then tell me how you like it.

pmcollectour

<< <i>Firefighters schedule is an absolute JOKE, sure they respond to fires on ocasion and risk their lives but not anymore than police or corrections officers do on a daily basis. . >>






This happened five minutes from my home


but I don't hear any of them complaining one bit about their jobs. I think they do it because they love it. Yes, it does have
a lot of down time. But thank God. That's means there's less fires to put out.

fishcooker

Falling interest rates result in massive wealth transfer from retiree's to young. Pensions are not immune to that wealth transfer. When interest rates fall, the person's pension liability sky-rockets.

Presently, Washington prefers for the young who do not work to receive the wealth.

guitarwes

.

erickso1

<< <i>Falling interest rates result in massive wealth transfer from retiree's to young. Pensions are not immune to that wealth transfer. When interest rates fall, the person's pension liability sky-rockets.

Presently, Washington prefers for the young who do not work to receive the wealth. >>



Yes, as rates fall the liabilities increase in value, but so do the assets. It is the mismatch between the pension liabilities and the pension assets that causes a problem, more specifically the mismatch between the duration of the assets and the duration of the liabilities.

** (edited to add) If the duration of the liabilities is greater then the duration of the assets, the increasing value of the liabilities will outpace the increasing value of the assets, widening the funding gap.

Coyn

<< <i>Presently, Washington prefers for the young who do not work to receive the wealth. >>
>>



What a crock of crap. I remember blaming my parents generation decades ago for the mess of the country, now that I'm a senior I'm ashamed of what we have done to our kids. Not only did we pocket all the wealth of the country but we wrote huge IOU's (T-bills etc) to ourselves and now we tell our kids they will have to accept them for goods and services. The best thing the young could do is rise up, cancel social security and all government pensions and T bill debts and put everything on a pay as you go basis.

WinPitcher

Hi Phil.

perkdog

<< <i>

<< <i>Firefighters schedule is an absolute JOKE, sure they respond to fires on ocasion and risk their lives but not anymore than police or corrections officers do on a daily basis. I believe in most cases Fireman work 24 hours on, 24 hours off 24 Hours on THEN have 4 days off. Firemans main job is medical calls nowadays but Im not sure why when you have ambulences responding too, gotta love when there is a fender bender with no injuries and you see the fire truck respond and stand around when the Police take care of the traffic and the Ambulence responders check the victims out.

Yes I am knocking the Fire Depts but not saying they dont have a dangerous job, restructering their job description and schedules would make a difference for starters. I am a corrections officer and I will be the first to say that Im VERY lucky to have my job, NOBODY forces me to do it, I do it and deal with the BS and danger because of the benefits and money. I do not complain nor do I think of myself as a public servant, Cops, Fireman and Corrections Officers all think the public owes them something, I do not and have the attitude of " Im very Lucky" and to my bretheren if I hear you complain then I say go to the private sector and then tell me how you like it. >>




This is ignorant.

Restructering their job descriptions? WHAT? If you've never been a firefighter you have no idea what can be called of you at a moments notice. You just can't rely on some whiteshirt saying "oh, there's not many fires from from 7pm-10pm on Tuesday and Thursdays so let's schedule light on these nights to trim some of the budget". More times than not something like that will come back to bite you in the behind. And another thing, have you pulled many 24hr on 24 hr off shifts? Or what my brother does, 48 hrs on 48 hrs off, 72 hrs on 48hrs off?

Chemical spills result from motor vehicle accidents.....and fires, oh my, who would have thought? I gurantee you would want the FD to roll up on the scene if your family was trapped in a car wreck that was smoking. I've seen it a hundred times. Plus, most of the extraction equipment is on Fire/Rescue trucks anyway. >>



Umm No its not ignorant, what is ignorant is your BS deciphering of what I meant. Restructering the job description does not mean lessen staff on duty, there are ways to have overlapping shifts so they dont need to work straight 24 hour shifts and be half asleep at 3am to go to a disaster or have an easy couple of shifts and then have 4 days off in a row. Its unhealthy for anyone to work 24 hour on 24 hour off shifts, its stupid and not neccesary AND it puts both the Fireman and Victim at risk due to being tired and out of sorts, overlapping schedules is the solution and would make more jobs for people looking to get on a dept and have a great job with benefits.


And please dont give me that BS about "I have no idea" YOU more than likely have no idea what its like to have an adult covered in his own feces slicing his arm with a razor blade and having to deal with that, OR being on a block with 120 inmates and having an out of control melee break out involving 30+ people with shanks. Im very well aware of all sorts of disorder and life threatening situations. I have spoken to Bob via PM and respectfully explained to him some of my post.

guitarwes

.

perkdog

<< <i>As far as dealing with an adult covered in his own feces with a sliced arm that's hyped up on meth or whatever, I've been in the medical field for 10+ years, yeah, I've dealt with such in the ER and it's never fun.

As far as rolling up in a firetruck to a brawl at the correction facility, no, never done that. But in 10+ years of firefighting you prepare yourself to wake up from a dead sleep at 3 am and get the job done. I've also done the same as a healthcare professional when working call or working a 24hr shift on a weekend or holiday. You do what you got to do and you get used to it. So how many life-threatening altercations do you deal with in 1 shift? Every fire call is a life-threatening situation.

Sounds like you're making a ton of negative assumptions directed towards firefighters. >>



Im not assuming or saying anything about Firefighters I respect them as well as Police and Medical, I will be 100% honest and admit Im JEALOUS of the Firemans schedule and wish I had the same, my reason for posting what I did was based on the complaining Ive heard from friends of mine that are Firefighters as well as police and my own fellow employees. In my facility I see tremendous amounts of wasted money and suffered working an extra day without pay, going from 4/2 schedule to a 5/2 schedule without getting compensated for it which annoys me but I have no right to complain as I am State employed and enjoy benefits that most dont. My first post was mainly directed at the schedule. And I dont buy that you do what you got to do and get used to it either, its an extreme risk and an unnecesary one in my opinion.

As far as lifethreatening situations the potential is there everyday in my facility as is with all medical and law enforcement jobs.

I dont wish to continue going back and forth on this, I 100% respect Fire/medical/law enforcement proffesionals I just see a alot of ways to save money and unnecesary BS that would better the States and Country as a whole if it was "Managed" better and the threat of pension reform wouldnt be on the table. We can agree to disagree I guess and to Bob and yourself whether you want it or not I will say thank You to the job you do when called upon.

Be safe

NumbersUsacom

<< <i>Shame what idiots think! When the city's are burning and gangs rule the streets~ Who ya gonna call??? >>



Amen ! Stopping the spiked retirements, and Putting a cap of say $70,000. yr on pensions no matter if your salary was $200,000.00 Yr.

But the mob mentality that has developed regarding this issue is actually sickening. The way that Americans turn on each other is amazing.

If one issue was thouroghly taken care of then we would not be having these issues as they exist in many areas of our countrys problems, and that one issue is
Illegal Immigration. The flooding of our nation by 20-30 million Illegals has all but decimated our ability to control costs in many areas of our society. California is your future unless
this is recognized and fully dealt with at all levels of Government and Private sector entities.

piecesofme

This is what got Phil bammed folks. Let's take it easy and discuss this in a civil manner. I know everyone thinks the importance of what they do for a living trumps some other occupations, but being good at whatever it is you do and you knowing it (and your superior knowing doesn't hurt either ) is all that really should matter.
Please oneself in the work you do, and that is a feeling that cannot be compared to in my book.

NumbersUsacom

<< <i>

<< <i>Presently, Washington prefers for the young who do not work to receive the wealth. >>
>>



What a crock of crap. I remember blaming my parents generation decades ago for the mess of the country, now that I'm a senior I'm ashamed of what we have done to our kids. Not only did we pocket all the wealth of the country but we wrote huge IOU's (T-bills etc) to ourselves and now we tell our kids they will have to accept them for goods and services. The best thing the young could do is rise up, cancel social security and all government pensions and T bill debts and put everything on a pay as you go basis. >>



Are you actually Ron Paul ? I Know you like your silver Paul so it may be you using Coyn as an alias.

Baley

[

<< <i> I remember blaming my parents generation decades ago for the mess of the country, and they blamed THEIR parents for "the mess the world was in" . . . now that I'm a senior I'm ashamed of what we have done to our kids. ... and they'll blame you for it, and their children will blame them, that's the way it works >>



As far as pensions, in my view it's like everything else people (and life in general) tend to do: game any system to their advantage, until the system is ruined. No, not everyone does it, but all it takes is some going too far, and it triggers reform for everyone. Used to be, you could drink a beer on certain beaches in southern California. But some drunken brawls in front of families trying to enjoy a fourth of july, and now they're dry all the time and decent people minding their own business with a beer are now criminal. too bad. The unions and public pensions are killing themselves, any system has a carrying capacity, learned this from population ecology, one group gains an advantage and throws off the balance to everyone's expense until something drastic happens to restore a balance dynamic. You just can't pay ever growing numbers of retirees a long, cushy retirement, the math just doesn't work out.

pf70collector

There needs to be a balance between private and public pensions. Pensions no longer exist in the private sector, so you can't blame the taxpayer being angry when his taxes are being used for a governement pension while he has none or SS that is a third/ fourth of what a public pension provides. There is no money in the coffers to pay for the public pensions and the government will be forced to fix the problem. These pensions are being paid by borrowed money (bonds) not the taxpayer. The taxpayer is tapped out. Passing it on to the next generation. We've gone beyond the tipping point here.

DrBuster

I lost my government pension before I could become vested, along with about 2/3 of the workforce I dealt with. Those that stayed were vested, retiring, rehired as contractors at 130% of their last salary, while in line to receive 60% top-year pension payments at the same time as those contract checks came in. Yeah, that's sustainable....glad I don't work around that nonsense anymore.

KUCH

I think police and firemen should all be voluntary with minimum pay and no pensions. It's called community service.

NumbersUsacom

<< <i>I think police and firemen should all be voluntary with minimum pay and no pensions. It's called community service. >>



Thats exactly how it once was in America.

BF started the first volunteer FD.

<< <i>After a huge fire in Philadelphia in 1736, Franklin created a fire brigade called The Union Fire Company with 30 volunteers. The first full-fledged volunteer firefighter in America was Isaac Paschall. The idea of volunteer fire brigades gained popularity. These citizens were able to afford to purchase equipment and pay fines for missing meetings and fires. >>



<< <i>Some famous Americans who served as volunteer firefighters were: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Samuel Adams, John Hanock, Paul Revere, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, John Barry, Aaron Burr, Benedict Arnold, James Buchanan and Millard Fillmore also served as volunteer firemen >>

cohodk

<< <i>I think police and firemen should all be voluntary with minimum pay and no pensions. It's called community service. >>



The fire departments in my area are all volunteer.

piecesofme

I think police and firemen should all be voluntary with minimum pay and no pensions. It's called community service.


and what ruined a good thing? UNIONS!
But that's a whole 'nother topic that I'll refrain from stirring the pot on.

nam812

<< <i>.....and what ruined a good thing? UNIONS!.......... >>



I'll take "what are things a scab says" for $800 Alex.

piecesofme

I wont be baited. I lived it and am very versed in the brainwashing tactics they use. Was in a Union for alot of years and ended up with not a damn thing from it. A cousin and I wont even talk anymore because of it. That's how strong I am now against unions.
Ultimately, if a Company wants the Union out, the Union can't do a damn thing about it, but complain...rather than take ACTION. Unions use to be worth something and did set the standard on alot of things. But in todays world, they're obsolete. jmstrongho

edited to add:
and oh by the way, my Dad was a Steward for 30+ years and I was for 6 myself.

USMC_6115

<< <i>I think police and firemen should all be voluntary with minimum pay and no pensions. It's called community service. >>



Are you people serious?

And I am absolutely positive you would still feel that way if one of your immediate family members were killed during a "routine" traffic stop.., or in a senseless domestic violence incident. No, never happens, not a risk. Volunteer? Really? I pray to GOD you never need the police in your perfect little world!

piecesofme

I pray to GOD you never need the police in your perfect little world!

Being prepared for as much of the unexpected as possible gives a sense of Peace. And if the s does htf, I'm more than ready to meet my Maker.

DrBuster

<< <i>

<< <i>I think police and firemen should all be voluntary with minimum pay and no pensions. It's called community service. >>



Are you people serious?

And I am absolutely positive you would still feel that way if one of your immediate family members were killed during a "routine" traffic stop.., or in a senseless domestic violence incident. No, never happens, not a risk. Volunteer? Really? I pray to GOD you never need the police in your perfect little world! >>



When America was armed for justice, honest neighbors took care of honest neighbors...

USMC_6115

Heh, volunteer fire departments.. I can understand why they are necessary in some low population townships.. I know several in that position. By the time they get the call, drop what they are doing, get to the F.D., gear up, get in an engine and get to your home............... I pray to GOD it is not your family they are recovering. YOU think they should ALL be like that? Volunteer with minimum pay? You may get your wish the way things are going. Hopefully it is not you or I that need them.

USMC_6115

<< <i>When America was armed for justice, honest neighbors took care of honest neighbors... >>



That I can agree with. But, in most states that doesn't work anymore either.

Downtown1974

It seems like every couple of months a thread like this surfaces. And it always ends the same. We just talk in circles until the thread falls of the page. Some get offensive at times and it makes good people pit themselves against each other. Incidentally...private/public sector unions have nothing to do with PMs

cohodk

makes good people pit themselves against each other.

Perhaps a good primer for a SHTF scenerio.

USMC_6115

<< <i>Downtown1974 >>



You're absolutely correct!

So, how about silver!!!!?

fishcooker

The best thing the young could do is rise up, cancel social security and all government pensions and T bill debts and put everything on a pay as you go basis.

Cancel the young's bene's in exchange for tossing out the elderly's as well? I'd take that bet, but somehow I doubt the young would. Heh, the first time someone had to stop buying a beer to pay as they go for something else, all heck would break loose and that would be the end of it!

DrBuster

<< <i>

<< <i>When America was armed for justice, honest neighbors took care of honest neighbors... >>



That I can agree with. But, in most states that doesn't work anymore either. >>



Nope. Doesn't happen much in neighborhoods even anymore, much less a bigger town/city/etc setting.

Spooly

Just adding a note. Home owners insurance is more expensive without a professional (full time) fire dept.

Justacommeman

I've done/do the volunteer Fire Dept thing in a city with a population of 80,000. Not exactly small. Six stations with 30 volunteer FF's each. While we train and pass the same tests as paid FF's there are three main differences that can't be argued

a) Slower response times as volunteer FF's have to drive to the station first. First two snatch the truck and load anyone else arriving before the first engine pulls out.

b) You don't get enough runs as a cohesive unit as you are working with different FF's on every run.

c) You never gather the same expertise as someone who specializes and does it full time. We have Dr's. lawyers, cops, EMT specialists etc in our volunteer roster. Everyone of us is an "expert" in another field other then firefighting. Yes, we can handle every situation as paid FF can do but we probably don't do it as well. I wouldn't expect a full time paid firefighter to be able to set a broken arm as the Dr. on our volunteer force could and I wouldn't expect our Dr to pull a ceiling down as well with a Halligan bar as a FTFF.

MJ

guitarwes

Ahh, I miss pulling ceilings, bustin' doors, and popping hoods with the Halligan tool.


btw, silver's down. Still a good buy imo.

Justacommeman

rut roh we tried to tell him MJ

Cash-strapped Scranton, Pa., has slashed pay for all city employees—including police and firefighters—to minimum wage, sparking furor among unions that now say they plan to sue in federal court.
A lawyer representing three unions told Scranton's Times-Tribune he will file several motions, including one to hold Mayor Chris Doherty in contempt of court for violating a judge's order to pay full wages.
The lawyer, Thomas Jennings, said he also expects to file a pair federal lawsuits on behalf of the unions—International Association of Firefighters Local 60, the Fraternal Order of Police E.B. Jermyn Lodge 2 and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local Lodge 2305—alleging the city failed to pay proper wages and overtime, and cut benefits for disabled police and firefighters without a proper hearing.
"Pick a law," Jennings told the Times-Tribune. "They violated it."
[Also read: As Scranton officials quibble, it's the residents who suffer]
Last week, Doherty abruptly cut pay for all 398 city employees to $7.25 per hour, saying it was the only way to keep Scranton solvent.
According to the paper, Scranton—which faces a $16.8 million budget deficit—had $133,000 in cash on hand as of Monday, but owed $3.4 million in various vendor bills, including health insurance.
Roger Leonard, a city employee, told NPR he typically gets a $900 check for two weeks of work. On Friday, it was $340.
"I have two children and a wife, and my wife is a stay-at-home mom," Leonard told NPR. "If the savings gets drained, we won't be OK."
The mayor, meanwhile, blamed the City Council for Scranton's financial woes.
"If they'd gone with my budget, we wouldn't be having this discussion," Doherty said. "The taxes would have been raised. The bills all would have been paid because we would have had a dedicated revenue stream."

cohodk

Health insurance is the big problem. Wait till the local govts tell the insurance companies to go pound sand. Will the Fed Govt pick up the slack, or will insurance companies finally be proactive in battling fraud? Doctors will be getting a pay cut also.

mariner67

<< <i>Health insurance is the big problem. Wait till the local govts tell the insurance companies to go pound sand. Will the Fed Govt pick up the slack, or will insurance companies finally be proactive in battling fraud? Doctors will be getting a pay cut also. >>



EVERYONE is going to get a pay cut in this country....it is just a matter of time.
Times are a changing.
Best.

DrBuster

Reap what you sow.

cohodk

Not everyone. There will be PLENTY of opportunities. Keep your feet in the sand and you'll get buried.

jmski52

If you are on the government dole, you won't be taking a pay cut.