Can't stand him as a person, but as a pure ball player I'd have to give the nod to Mays.
Defensively he was better than Mantle more than Mantle was better than Mays offensively.
Further, look at who else was on the Yankess versus who was on the Giants. Mantle, as great as he was, had a lot of supporting cast around him for most of his career. Mays didn't have anywhere near the same calibre of supporting cast members on the Giants and yet his offensive stats are within a "hair" of Mantle's.
<< <i>Further, look at who else was on the Yankess versus who was on the Giants. Mantle, as great as he was, had a lot of supporting cast around him for most of his career. Mays didn't have anywhere near the same calibre of supporting cast members on the Giants and yet his offensive stats are within a "hair" of Mantle's. >>
McCovey and Cepeda both sucked. There were also plenty of sucky players who were only with the Giants for a few years, but managed to provide Mays the same protection in the lineup that Mantle got from guys like Gene Woodling, Hank Bauer, Joe Collins, Gil McDougald, Skowron, Howard, and Rizzuto. To name a few, they were Bobby Thomson, Hank Thomson, Felipe Alou, and Bobby Bonds. I'm sure there were others, but I'm no expert on the Giants franchise.
The support Mantle got from Berra and Maris was certainly no greater than what Mays got from McCovey and Cepeda, and arguably a lot less.
I saw them both play. I was (and still am) a huge Yankees fan. Mickey was my favorite player. That being said, if I could only draft one of hem today, it's Say Hey.
So if I were to start a franchise today, in 2012...who would I select........that's a tough one considering I already know their lifetime statistics. Two guys putting up similar franchise numbers, right now, is Josh Hamilton and Matt Kemp. Wow, I'd take Willie Mays, I just see him on ESPN Top 10 plays of the week, every week.
I am a die hard Yankees fan, but if we're being objective how much did his teammates help "The Greatest Teammate". The Yankees teams during the 50's were significantly better than the Giants (although that was changing in the early sixties).
Here's an interesting way to look at this question:
Who would you want Mantle if he had played with Giants or Mays if he had played with the Yankees? I think Mays' numbers might have been a tad better, Mickey's about the same, but the Yankees still win lots more than the Giants.
Mantle or Mays? I don't know. But, were Musial, Aaron, and Clemente, all of whom played close to that era, in their league or maybe even better?
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
The 1950's and 1960's had the greatest collection of talent that the game has ever seen or will see again. How do you pick a starting outfield from Mays, Mantle. Aaron, Frank Robby, Clemente, Musial, Williams?????
For the entirety of their careers, not just prime years, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Musial, in that order. Hard to argue with any order (though I would argue about anyone putting Mays outside of the top two)
Clemente a distant fifth. Of that generation, Frank Robinson was better, Mathews and Kaline might have been
Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life.
<< <i>Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life. >>
If people degrade his accomplishments as a baseball player because of his personal life that would make him underrated
Very, very harsh Hank36. Mantle was an alcoholic that quit drinking and tried to make amends for his poor behavior.
I saw an interview where he was in tears as he related how sorry he was for how he acted.
As a ballplayer, he probably had more talent than any who have played the game, injuries and his drinking problem diminished those skills. I would take him in his prime over Mays. If we are going to bring personalities into this, Mays has a horrible reputation and no apologies have ever been offered, to my knowledge.
Joe
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i>Very, very harsh Hank36. Mantle was an alcoholic that quit drinking and tried to make amends for his poor behavior.
I saw an interview where he was in tears as he related how sorry he was for how he acted.
As a ballplayer, he probably had more talent than any who have played the game, injuries and his drinking problem diminished those skills. I would take him in his prime over Mays. If we are going to bring personalities into this, Mays has a horrible reputation and no apologies have ever been offered, to my knowledge.
<< <i>Very, very harsh Hank36. Mantle was an alcoholic that quit drinking and tried to make amends for his poor behavior.
I saw an interview where he was in tears as he related how sorry he was for how he acted.
As a ballplayer, he probably had more talent than any who have played the game, injuries and his drinking problem diminished those skills. I would take him in his prime over Mays. If we are going to bring personalities into this, Mays has a horrible reputation and no apologies have ever been offered, to my knowledge.
Yeah, Mantle quit drinking when he needed to beg for a liver transplant. Up until that point, the media covered up for all his carousing--then they were happy to peddle the story of "The Mick's" so-called redemption. The Mantle apologists want to slam Mays for being a surly jackass, but frankly, most successful professional athletes are surly jackasses. I'd rather have Mays, in his prime, in my lineup, for the simple reason that he probably wouldn't have a hangover.
<< <i>Mays lost two years of his career to the military, which cost him a shot at 700 home runs. Not an argument one way or another, just sayin'. >>
I first saw Mays in 1962. Greatest all around ball player of the modern era in my opinion. He did it all and was the general on the field.
He lost over 100 HR just playing in Candlestick. He never complained about that stadium. And he never complained about the racial treatment he received in the early years.
NL pitching should also be taken into account. Far superior.
Mays. Better all around player, and played against better competition throughout his career. Mays would have had better numbers if he played in the AL his whole career.
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<< <i>Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life. >>
Give me a fricken break.How can you make such a rude statement.
<< <i>Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life. >>
Ah, yes, and Willie Mays was the "good guy" who not only got along famously with the media, but was always happy to sign an autograph for the fans (even when being paid to do so).
Neither player should have his off the field personalities detract from the magic they created on the diamond.
Without going into great detail, when looking at how great they were in their prime, it boils down to one player, and one player only! Mickey Mantle.
Below is how many times each player led ALL of MLB in OPS+. Since Mantle always missed enough games to put a dent into his counting type stats...the OPS+ rate stat captures perfectly his skill level. Since they are from the same era, no need to worry about era adjustments and such. Also, the OPS+ more accurately measures a players ability, as opposed to some of the common archaic measurements that are wrought with gross measurement errors.
Mantle led all of MLB in OPS+ Six times! Mays led all of MLB in OPS+ one time!
Here are their top seven respective seasons in OPS+
Mantle beats him handily in each of their seven best seasons, and annihilates him in their top four!
During one consecutive eight year stretch, which encompassed most of those prime seasons above, Mantle had 108 stolen bases to only 15 caught stealing for an 88% success rate! Yeah, he could run, and ran every bit as well as Mays during his prime years.
Mays' best eight year SB run was 221 SB and 64 caught stealing for a 78% success rate.
It takes appx two successful stolen base attempts to just equal the negative value of one caught stealing.
Converting those stolen base numbers into runs, Mantle would have provided his team with a value of 17 runs via his stolen bases and caught stealing, Mays 20. Taking into account that Mantle missed more games, thus more chances to run, and that Mantle's manager wasn't as eager to give the green light, those two were virtually equal in stolen base skill in their primes.
Mays was an excellent fielder, and Mantle was certainly no slouch, especially in his prime. The offensive gap is just way too wide to overcome any deficit Mantle had defensively in his prime, compared to Mays....if Mays even had any defensive advantage when Mantle was in his prime and running well.
Prime years conclusion is a no contest winner in Mickey Mantle.
<< <i>He lost over 100 HR just playing in Candlestick. >>
Probably offset by the bundle he added by playing several years at the Polo Grounds.
Tabe >>
After Mays got out of the Army, he played 4 years at the Polo grounds. That stadium would have been great for McCovey but Mays was not a dead pull hitter so the left field porch was not geared for his swing. Mays swung for the alley and center, he liked his doubles. Only 4 people put the ball into the center field bleachers at the Polo grounds in 50 years, with those fences at almost 500 feet some years...they didn't offer any advantage to Mays.
Mays got nada from the Polo grounds dimensions. If the Polo grounds were so sweet, the Giants would have stayed. Without the Army and Candlestick, Mays was a 800 HR guy. If you say the Polo grounds added a 100 in 4 years, I guess if he'd played his career there...he'd be a 1000 HR guy. He'd be a 1000 HR guy at the Fulton County launching pad also.
Yankee Stadium.................not exactly a bandbox.
Joe
P.S. Thanks for the OPS+ numbers. I usually stick with the OPS without the + but these numbers really show Mantle's offensive production. In a word Incredible! In fact in Mantle's triple crown year, I believe he surpassed Mays' CAREER numbers in each of the triple crown statistics.
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I'm back from my self imposed ban...about the third one I have done so far to myself.
As you like to keep yourself to the sidelines to avoid undue aggravation, I need to just keep to the topics at hand with facts, research, and logic, and leave out the condescending or insulting posts...hence the name "objectivity."
Comments
Defensively he was better than Mantle more than Mantle was better than Mays offensively.
Further, look at who else was on the Yankess versus who was on the Giants. Mantle, as great
as he was, had a lot of supporting cast around him for most of his career. Mays didn't have anywhere
near the same calibre of supporting cast members on the Giants and yet his offensive stats are within
a "hair" of Mantle's.
Dave
<< <i>Further, look at who else was on the Yankess versus who was on the Giants. Mantle, as great
as he was, had a lot of supporting cast around him for most of his career. Mays didn't have anywhere
near the same calibre of supporting cast members on the Giants and yet his offensive stats are within
a "hair" of Mantle's. >>
McCovey and Cepeda both sucked. There were also plenty of sucky players who were only with the Giants for a few years, but managed to provide Mays the same protection in the lineup that Mantle got from guys like Gene Woodling, Hank Bauer, Joe Collins, Gil McDougald, Skowron, Howard, and Rizzuto. To name a few, they were Bobby Thomson, Hank Thomson, Felipe Alou, and Bobby Bonds. I'm sure there were others, but I'm no expert on the Giants franchise.
The support Mantle got from Berra and Maris was certainly no greater than what Mays got from McCovey and Cepeda, and arguably a lot less.
Here's an interesting way to look at this question:
Who would you want Mantle if he had played with Giants or Mays if he had played with the Yankees? I think Mays' numbers might have been a tad better, Mickey's about the same, but the Yankees still win lots more than the Giants.
DUKE SNIDER
Okay, it's time to turn this thread to more important matters: CHAMBERLAIN OR RUSSELL?
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
Clemente a distant fifth. Of that generation, Frank Robinson was better, Mathews and Kaline might have been
<< <i>How do you pick a starting outfield from Mays, Mantle. Aaron, Frank Robby, Clemente, Musial, Williams????? >>
Fairly easily
Williams in leftfield, Mays in center, Aaron in right
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Ralph
<< <i>Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life. >>
If people degrade his accomplishments as a baseball player because of his personal life that would make him underrated
I saw an interview where he was in tears as he related how sorry he was for how he acted.
As a ballplayer, he probably had more talent than any who have played the game, injuries and his drinking problem diminished those skills. I would take him in his prime over Mays. If we are going to bring personalities into this, Mays has a horrible reputation and no apologies have ever been offered, to my knowledge.
Joe
<< <i>Very, very harsh Hank36. Mantle was an alcoholic that quit drinking and tried to make amends for his poor behavior.
I saw an interview where he was in tears as he related how sorry he was for how he acted.
As a ballplayer, he probably had more talent than any who have played the game, injuries and his drinking problem diminished those skills. I would take him in his prime over Mays. If we are going to bring personalities into this, Mays has a horrible reputation and no apologies have ever been offered, to my knowledge.
Joe >>
SI vault
<< <i>
<< <i>Very, very harsh Hank36. Mantle was an alcoholic that quit drinking and tried to make amends for his poor behavior.
I saw an interview where he was in tears as he related how sorry he was for how he acted.
As a ballplayer, he probably had more talent than any who have played the game, injuries and his drinking problem diminished those skills. I would take him in his prime over Mays. If we are going to bring personalities into this, Mays has a horrible reputation and no apologies have ever been offered, to my knowledge.
Joe >>
SI vault >>
Yeah, Mantle quit drinking when he needed to beg for a liver transplant. Up until that point, the media covered up for all his carousing--then they were happy to peddle the story of "The Mick's" so-called redemption. The Mantle apologists want to slam Mays for being a surly jackass, but frankly, most successful professional athletes are surly jackasses. I'd rather have Mays, in his prime, in my lineup, for the simple reason that he probably wouldn't have a hangover.
<< <i>Mays lost two years of his career to the military, which cost him a shot at 700 home runs. Not an argument one way or another, just sayin'. >>
I first saw Mays in 1962. Greatest all around ball player of the modern era in my opinion. He did it all and was the general on the field.
He lost over 100 HR just playing in Candlestick. He never complained about that stadium. And he never complained about the racial treatment he received in the early years.
NL pitching should also be taken into account. Far superior.
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<< <i>He lost over 100 HR just playing in Candlestick. >>
Probably offset by the bundle he added by playing several years at the Polo Grounds.
Tabe
<< <i>Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life. >>
Give me a fricken break.How can you make such a rude statement.
<< <i>Mantle will always be the most overrated baseball player in history. Was he great? Yeah, but I don't get the worship, particularly in light of what an absolute drunken piece of crap he turned out to be in his personal life. >>
Ah, yes, and Willie Mays was the "good guy" who not only got along famously with the media, but was always happy to sign an autograph for the fans (even when being paid to do so).
Neither player should have his off the field personalities detract from the magic they created on the diamond.
Below is how many times each player led ALL of MLB in OPS+. Since Mantle always missed enough games to put a dent into his counting type stats...the OPS+ rate stat captures perfectly his skill level. Since they are from the same era, no need to worry about era adjustments and such. Also, the OPS+ more accurately measures a players ability, as opposed to some of the common archaic measurements that are wrought with gross measurement errors.
Mantle led all of MLB in OPS+ Six times!
Mays led all of MLB in OPS+ one time!
Here are their top seven respective seasons in OPS+
Mantle...Mays
221.......185
210.......175
206.......175
195.......174
188.......173
180.......172
177.......165
Mantle beats him handily in each of their seven best seasons, and annihilates him in their top four!
During one consecutive eight year stretch, which encompassed most of those prime seasons above, Mantle had 108 stolen bases to only 15 caught stealing for an 88% success rate! Yeah, he could run, and ran every bit as well as Mays during his prime years.
Mays' best eight year SB run was 221 SB and 64 caught stealing for a 78% success rate.
It takes appx two successful stolen base attempts to just equal the negative value of one caught stealing.
Converting those stolen base numbers into runs, Mantle would have provided his team with a value of 17 runs via his stolen bases and caught stealing, Mays 20. Taking into account that Mantle missed more games, thus more chances to run, and that Mantle's manager wasn't as eager to give the green light, those two were virtually equal in stolen base skill in their primes.
Mays was an excellent fielder, and Mantle was certainly no slouch, especially in his prime. The offensive gap is just way too wide to overcome any deficit Mantle had defensively in his prime, compared to Mays....if Mays even had any defensive advantage when Mantle was in his prime and running well.
Prime years conclusion is a no contest winner in Mickey Mantle.
Skip?
<< <i>
<< <i>He lost over 100 HR just playing in Candlestick. >>
Probably offset by the bundle he added by playing several years at the Polo Grounds.
Tabe >>
After Mays got out of the Army, he played 4 years at the Polo grounds. That stadium would have been great for McCovey but Mays was not a dead pull hitter so the left field porch was not geared for his swing. Mays swung for the alley and center, he liked his doubles. Only 4 people put the ball into the center field bleachers at the Polo grounds in 50 years, with those fences at almost 500 feet some years...they didn't offer any advantage to Mays.
Mays got nada from the Polo grounds dimensions. If the Polo grounds were so sweet, the Giants would have stayed. Without the Army and Candlestick, Mays was a 800 HR guy. If you say the Polo grounds added a 100 in 4 years, I guess if he'd played his career there...he'd be a 1000 HR guy. He'd be a 1000 HR guy at the Fulton County launching pad also.
Mays had 325 career home runs on the road.
Joe
P.S. Thanks for the OPS+ numbers. I usually stick with the OPS without the + but these numbers really show Mantle's offensive production. In a word Incredible! In fact in Mantle's triple crown year, I believe he surpassed Mays' CAREER numbers in each of the triple crown statistics.
<< <i>If the Polo grounds were so sweet, the Giants would have stayed. >>
?
<< <i>Great post!
Skip? >>
Steve, yes.
I'm back from my self imposed ban...about the third one I have done so far to myself.
As you like to keep yourself to the sidelines to avoid undue aggravation, I need to just keep to the topics at hand with facts, research, and logic, and leave out the condescending or insulting posts...hence the name "objectivity."
I may even buy Jaxxr a Jim Rice poster