Having only seen them in their twilight years, except for selected highlights, I'd say Mays hands down. Mantle MIGHT have been a better player, but injuries made that pure speculation IMO.
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Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been.
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Mantle: Career 172 over 18 years. Mantle had 6 seasons over 188. Mays: Best was 185, his sixth best was 172.
On Base Percentage: Mantle had 8 seasons over .423, with a best of .512. Mays had a best ever of .425. Mantle's career OBP of .421 was better than Mays' second best season.
Mantle dominates in Runs Created.
If slugging is your thing, Mantle's six best years are considerably better than Mays.
Grounding into double plays? Mantle's most ever was 11 in a season. Mays went as high as 9, and had 16 seasons of 11 or more.
Mantle walked more than he struck out. Mays did not.
In their best years, their home runs and runs scored were about the same, even though Mantle missed games.
RBI's goes to Mays. But, RBI's is a lot like runs scored. You are depending on your teammates a lot.
Mantle was an excellent outfielder, but Mays was better. But not so much better to offset everything else. Plus, he's Willie Mays the person, so we have to dock him some points for that.
Core years. Prime years is what was mentioned. I'd consider prime to be 5-10 years. Perhaps you disagree. Huge in my opinion. >>
I basically just took them both from the time they broke in regularly to the time at which their stats dropped off noticeable. In both cases it worked out to about the same duration. Prime seemed so subjective to me, not that my method was any less so.
Most of Mantle's advantages in RC and OPS+ come from his significant advantage in walks. Not sure how I view that, but I'm not quite where james is on it. My point was that I don't see a huge difference that makes one of them a no-doubter.
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Fair enough. I guess there are certain stats that I personally favor, and Mantle happens to win those. I'm sure someone could find a nice group of Mays stats around to make a nice argument the other way. Both were amazing players.
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<< <i>Fair enough. I guess there are certain stats that I personally favor, and Mantle happens to win those. I'm sure someone could find a nice group of Mays stats around to make a nice argument the other way. Both were amazing players. >>
Just noticed your point about the thread title saying "Prime". Mea culpa
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<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage? >>
Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on.
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"Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on. "
I thought we were talking in his prime?
If not for the hole in the outfield yes his career would have said 1,000 stolen bases in 1962. Just a thought. Not a real thought but a thought.
Pitchers were never as afraid to pitch to Willie and they where absolutely terrified to pitch to Mickey which is why as a free swinger he wlked so much and Willie like Hank had a nice living in garbage time when either came at bat with man on base and the game on the line against the Dogfers iknew then the Dodgers were safe.
Mays....unless we are playing in the world series....Mantle did turn it up a knotch in the fall classic.
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They are extremely close in many of the numbers. One factor which is ofter forgotten about, is that Mantle gives you the ability to hit from both sides of the plate.
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<< <i>With or without a messed up knee for Mantle?
If without the messed up knee I take Mantle otherwise I go with Mays. >>
The problem is, Mantle injured his knee in his rookie year. Trying to draw a picture of a non-knee-injury Mantle is parallel-universe stuff. >>
I totally understand what you are saying here. But from what I have read and heard from those who saw them both before the Mantle knee injury, there is no way Mays would come close to Mantle. Speed, power, hit from both sides....Mantle would have him hands down. It is a shame we will never really know.
<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage? >>
Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on. >>
Spoken by someone who either never saw him play and/or isn't the slightest bit of a Mantle fan. He stole bases when the team needed it most - down by exactly one run late in a game, usually with two outs. He virtually never got caught and would have made more attempts if he had full function in both legs. He was once quoted as saying that stolen bases weren't a big deal in the era in which he played, but if he'd known it would become important, he would have stolen dozens of bases a year. When he was battling Ted Williams for the batting title in the mid 50s, Williams complained that "all my hits are real," or words to that effect, in reference to the plethora of dinky infield hits Mantle ran out on swinging bunts.
Defensively, the criticism of Mantle was always that he didn't get a good jump on the ball like DiMaggio and Mays got, but Mantle then made up for it with his speed, and caught almost everything those other guys would have caught. As far as I know, Mays was never clocked going from home plate to first base in 3.1 seconds. So don't go saying Mantle had a speed disadvantage. He was as fast on one leg as virtually anyone else who played the game at full strength.
I totally understand what you are saying here. But from what I have read and heard from those who saw them both before the Mantle knee injury, there is no way Mays would come close to Mantle. Speed, power, hit from both sides....Mantle would have him hands down. It is a shame we will never really know. >>
Good point...probably too close to call. I can't help but feel if Mantle hadn't been hurt there would have been no discussion about Bonds, McGwire or choke and puke Arod. I never had the chance to see Mantle play in person, just on tv, but I did see Mays play in person. Sort of OT here but I was at a game in St. Louis, the "old" Busch Stadium, Sportsmans Park. Gibson was pitching for the Cardinals against the Giants. Mays always had this habit of really digging in at the plate and this sort of stuff would irritate the living daylights out of Gibson. Gibson wasn't having a real good game, so I imagine this only added to his irritation. So, Mays digs in and the next thing you know Willie is on his butt, helmet flying one way and bat another. Mays gathers his self up, dusts himself off and digs in again, next pitch he lines a double off the left field wall. Gibson stares him down at second base as Willie is dusting himself off, and Gibson tips his hat to him. Willie's next at bat he digs in again, and again he's on his butt. This time after weakly fouling off one pitch. Gibson strikes him out on I think four pitches. Other than that one weak foul, Willie never came close to another pitch. As Mays is walking back to the dugout, Gibson is again staring him down. Willie looks out to the mound, and tips his cap to him. Now that was baseball. Sure has changed.
<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage? >>
Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on. >>
Spoken by someone who either never saw him play and/or isn't the slightest bit of a Mantle fan. He stole bases when the team needed it most - down by exactly one run late in a game, usually with two outs. He virtually never got caught and would have made more attempts if he had full function in both legs. He was once quoted as saying that stolen bases weren't a big deal in the era in which he played, but if he'd known it would become important, he would have stolen dozens of bases a year. When he was battling Ted Williams for the batting title in the mid 50s, Williams complained that "all my hits are real," or words to that effect, in reference to the plethora of dinky infield hits Mantle ran out on swinging bunts.
Defensively, the criticism of Mantle was always that he didn't get a good jump on the ball like DiMaggio and Mays got, but Mantle then made up for it with his speed, and caught almost everything those other guys would have caught. As far as I know, Mays was never clocked going from home plate to first base in 3.1 seconds. So don't go saying Mantle had a speed disadvantage. He was as fast on one leg as virtually anyone else who played the game at full strength. >>
Didn't realize you had seen them both play in person so much. I'll obviously have to defer to your first-hand observations. BTW - I'm huge Mantle fan. FWIW, considering how big a DBag I think Mays is, it's not an easy thing for me to give him the nod.
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It's hard to identify the best season from Mays because he had so many at such a high level. But none of them were as good as Mantle during 1956-57. I would also put his 1961 season ahead of any single year from Mays
So while Mays did more to help the Giants over his entire career than Mantle did to help the Yankees, at their very best Mantle was better
<< <i>So while Mays did more to help the Giants over his entire career than Mantle did to help the Yankees >>
HUH?
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
In the first Bill James Historical Abstract, he said that Mantle's peak was much higher than Mays'. I believe he later walked it back a little, citing the superiority of the National League overall.
Impossible to know who was the better player in their respective primes as both were 2 of the greatest of all times. Mays was better in some regards and Mantle better in others. Mantle tore up his knee or he would have been the clear answer, imo.
The deciding factor for me in overall "Best" is answered by this :
If I were a GM for a new franchise and had the opportunity to start with either Mantle or Mays as my franchise player, who would I pick?
The answer is Mantle and it's not even close. If anyone answers Mays to this particular question then you are either lying or would get fired as GM immediately. Nobody captivated fans or put asses in the seats like Mantle. Everyone loved Mickey.
1st off...this is a debate that we all love as they are 2 of the greatest all time and there probably really isn't a right or wrong answer. I'm not sure that I really could decide. Although I do strongly disagree with one point I've heard on this debate on that they were close defensively....from everything I've ever heard and old timers that I've talked to///Mays was far superior as a defensive centerfielder. I'm very comfortable with that statement. Mickey's raw power was unmatched. Great debate and they along with Aaron are the reason I love to collect sports cards.
Tomi
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If without the messed up knee I take Mantle otherwise I go with Mays.
<< <i>Who would you say was a better player. >>
Having only seen them in their twilight years, except for selected highlights, I'd say Mays hands down. Mantle MIGHT have been a better player, but injuries made that pure speculation IMO.
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Mantle (Age 22-30) .315 39 101 per season average.
Mays (Age 23-35) .315 40 108 per season average.
I would say it's pretty close but would have to go with Mays only because he lasted longer and took better care of himself.
<< <i>It isn't even close. Not even close at all. Mantle by a HUGE margin. >>
How so? I can agree that each side can make a case, but a "HUGE margin"??
Taking their core years, which amount to approximately the same number of years, here's what I see:
Mays (15 yrs) 563 HR, 1563 RBI .311/.386/.972 163 OPS+
Mantle (14 Yrs) 454 HR, 1298 RBI .309/.429/1.011 177 OPS+
Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been.
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Justin
Retired - Eddie Mathews Master Registry Set (96.36%) Rank 1
Mantle: Career 172 over 18 years. Mantle had 6 seasons over 188.
Mays: Best was 185, his sixth best was 172.
On Base Percentage:
Mantle had 8 seasons over .423, with a best of .512.
Mays had a best ever of .425.
Mantle's career OBP of .421 was better than Mays' second best season.
Mantle dominates in Runs Created.
If slugging is your thing, Mantle's six best years are considerably better than Mays.
Grounding into double plays? Mantle's most ever was 11 in a season. Mays went as high as 9, and had 16 seasons of 11 or more.
Mantle walked more than he struck out. Mays did not.
In their best years, their home runs and runs scored were about the same, even though Mantle missed games.
RBI's goes to Mays. But, RBI's is a lot like runs scored. You are depending on your teammates a lot.
Mantle was an excellent outfielder, but Mays was better. But not so much better to offset everything else. Plus, he's Willie Mays the person, so we have to dock him some points for that.
Mays (15 yrs) 563 HR, 1563 RBI .311/.386/.972 163 OPS+
Mantle (14 Yrs) 454 HR, 1298 RBI .309/.429/1.011 177 OPS+
Core years. Prime years is what was mentioned. I'd consider prime to be 5-10 years. Perhaps you disagree. Huge in my opinion.
<< <i>With or without a messed up knee for Mantle?
If without the messed up knee I take Mantle otherwise I go with Mays.
>>
The problem is, Mantle injured his knee in his rookie year. Trying to draw a picture of a non-knee-injury Mantle is parallel-universe stuff.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>Taking their core years, which amount to approximately the same number of years, here's what I see:
Mays (15 yrs) 563 HR, 1563 RBI .311/.386/.972 163 OPS+
[Mantle (14 Yrs) 454 HR, 1298 RBI .309/.429/1.011 177 OPS+
Core years. Prime years is what was mentioned. I'd consider prime to be 5-10 years. Perhaps you disagree. Huge in my opinion. >>
I basically just took them both from the time they broke in regularly to the time at which their stats dropped off noticeable. In both cases it worked out to about the same duration. Prime seemed so subjective to me, not that my method was any less so.
Most of Mantle's advantages in RC and OPS+ come from his significant advantage in walks. Not sure how I view that, but I'm not quite where james is on it. My point was that I don't see a huge difference that makes one of them a no-doubter.
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Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Fair enough. I guess there are certain stats that I personally favor, and Mantle happens to win those. I'm sure someone could find a nice group of Mays stats around to make a nice argument the other way. Both were amazing players. >>
Just noticed your point about the thread title saying "Prime". Mea culpa
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<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage?
<< <i>
<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage? >>
Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on.
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I thought we were talking in his prime?
If not for the hole in the outfield yes his career would have said 1,000 stolen bases in 1962. Just a thought. Not a real thought but a thought.
and Willie like Hank had a nice living in garbage time when either came at bat with man on base and the game on the line against the Dogfers iknew then
the Dodgers were safe.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Currently collecting 1934 Butterfinger, 1969 Nabisco, 1991 Topps Desert Shield (in PSA 9 or 10), and 1990 Donruss Learning Series (in PSA 10).
Matt
<< <i>
<< <i>With or without a messed up knee for Mantle?
If without the messed up knee I take Mantle otherwise I go with Mays.
>>
The problem is, Mantle injured his knee in his rookie year. Trying to draw a picture of a non-knee-injury Mantle is parallel-universe stuff. >>
I totally understand what you are saying here. But from what I have read and heard from those who saw them both before the Mantle knee injury, there is no way Mays would come close to Mantle. Speed, power, hit from both sides....Mantle would have him hands down. It is a shame we will never really know.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage? >>
Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on. >>
Spoken by someone who either never saw him play and/or isn't the slightest bit of a Mantle fan. He stole bases when the team needed it most - down by exactly one run late in a game, usually with two outs. He virtually never got caught and would have made more attempts if he had full function in both legs. He was once quoted as saying that stolen bases weren't a big deal in the era in which he played, but if he'd known it would become important, he would have stolen dozens of bases a year. When he was battling Ted Williams for the batting title in the mid 50s, Williams complained that "all my hits are real," or words to that effect, in reference to the plethora of dinky infield hits Mantle ran out on swinging bunts.
Defensively, the criticism of Mantle was always that he didn't get a good jump on the ball like DiMaggio and Mays got, but Mantle then made up for it with his speed, and caught almost everything those other guys would have caught. As far as I know, Mays was never clocked going from home plate to first base in 3.1 seconds. So don't go saying Mantle had a speed disadvantage. He was as fast on one leg as virtually anyone else who played the game at full strength.
<< <i>
I totally understand what you are saying here. But from what I have read and heard from those who saw them both before the Mantle knee injury, there is no way Mays would come close to Mantle. Speed, power, hit from both sides....Mantle would have him hands down. It is a shame we will never really know. >>
Good point...probably too close to call. I can't help but feel if Mantle hadn't been hurt there would have been no discussion about Bonds, McGwire or choke and puke Arod. I never had the chance to see Mantle play in person, just on tv, but I did see Mays play in person. Sort of OT here but I was at a game in St. Louis, the "old" Busch Stadium, Sportsmans Park. Gibson was pitching for the Cardinals against the Giants. Mays always had this habit of really digging in at the plate and this sort of stuff would irritate the living daylights out of Gibson. Gibson wasn't having a real good game, so I imagine this only added to his irritation. So, Mays digs in and the next thing you know Willie is on his butt, helmet flying one way and bat another. Mays gathers his self up, dusts himself off and digs in again, next pitch he lines a double off the left field wall. Gibson stares him down at second base as Willie is dusting himself off, and Gibson tips his hat to him. Willie's next at bat he digs in again, and again he's on his butt. This time after weakly fouling off one pitch. Gibson strikes him out on I think four pitches. Other than that one weak foul, Willie never came close to another pitch. As Mays is walking back to the dugout, Gibson is again staring him down. Willie looks out to the mound, and tips his cap to him. Now that was baseball. Sure has changed.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Now, add in Mays' speed advantage and defensive chops, and I just can't see Mantle being ahead by a HUGE margin unless we're projecting what he could have been. >>
What speed advantage? >>
Mantle never stole over 21 bases, and only stole over 15 3 times. His Range factor was below league average by 1964, and was never really all that stellar after 1962. His knee troubles robbed him of his speed pretty early on. >>
Spoken by someone who either never saw him play and/or isn't the slightest bit of a Mantle fan. He stole bases when the team needed it most - down by exactly one run late in a game, usually with two outs. He virtually never got caught and would have made more attempts if he had full function in both legs. He was once quoted as saying that stolen bases weren't a big deal in the era in which he played, but if he'd known it would become important, he would have stolen dozens of bases a year. When he was battling Ted Williams for the batting title in the mid 50s, Williams complained that "all my hits are real," or words to that effect, in reference to the plethora of dinky infield hits Mantle ran out on swinging bunts.
Defensively, the criticism of Mantle was always that he didn't get a good jump on the ball like DiMaggio and Mays got, but Mantle then made up for it with his speed, and caught almost everything those other guys would have caught. As far as I know, Mays was never clocked going from home plate to first base in 3.1 seconds. So don't go saying Mantle had a speed disadvantage. He was as fast on one leg as virtually anyone else who played the game at full strength. >>
Didn't realize you had seen them both play in person so much. I'll obviously have to defer to your first-hand observations. BTW - I'm huge Mantle fan. FWIW, considering how big a DBag I think Mays is, it's not an easy thing for me to give him the nod.
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So while Mays did more to help the Giants over his entire career than Mantle did to help the Yankees, at their very best Mantle was better
<< <i>So while Mays did more to help the Giants over his entire career than Mantle did to help the Yankees >>
HUH?
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>
<< <i>So while Mays did more to help the Giants over his entire career than Mantle did to help the Yankees >>
HUH? >>
Yes he did help the giants sit aound and watch the Dodgers go to 9 world series many of those against Mick and the Yankees
...some of the comparisons remind me of the Lemieux/Gretzky debates, ultimately I feel you can't look at 'what if' but rather what 'is'.
Dave
The deciding factor for me in overall "Best" is answered by this :
If I were a GM for a new franchise and had the opportunity to start with either Mantle or Mays as my franchise player, who would I pick?
The answer is Mantle and it's not even close. If anyone answers Mays to this particular question then you are either lying or would get fired as GM immediately. Nobody captivated fans or put asses in the seats like Mantle. Everyone loved Mickey.
Mickey71