HISTORY is MADE - PCGS Grades First 67 Brown Lincoln !!!
Coppercolor
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Well, PCGS has said that if they ever handled a lincoln deserving of a 67BN grade, they would grade it 67BN and it seems they've stuck to their word. This coin was graded within the past couple days because I've been watching the pops - mainly because I've been trying to make the first 67BN. I've personally made 12 Pop X/0 66BN lincolns in the past three years but failed to make a 66+ or a 67.
This coin, like Stewart Blay's 1919 in 69RD, now stands out as the ONLY coin PCGS has graded in that grade/color designation in all it's years of operation (before I get skewered I'm not comparing this coin to Stewarts 1919!) There is no 68 RB mint state lincoln.
My Mixed Emotions:
- Delighted that one got graded
- Slightly dissapointed I didn't make the coin though tempered by hope more can be made
- It's obviously a coin from a US double mint set
- This coin looks very clean, must have extremely strong luster in hand. Very few mint set lincolns came out of those sets without carbon/staining/streaks but this one seems to have
- It's got an attractive gold color obverse and interesting mixed mint set toned reverse
- I admit I expected a more dramatic looking example to be the first 67BN
- I expected it would be a darker or more robust color
Comments welcome.
(Edited to add time period in which I've made my 66BN lincolns)
I'd like my copper well done please!
0
Comments
What do I know though I just collect tarnished Walkers?
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1) This coin was made within the past day or two, Phil hasn't even uploaded the images to cert verification though it did show up in coinfacts
2) Price guide has this coin at a measly $125
3) Though I like my 56D's in 66BN, I would buy this coin at a premium
4) I would buy THIS holder, as well as this coin
5) The truview special at $10 sure did bring a lot of colorfully toned coins out of hiding
6) Brown lincolns (colorfully toned ones) are finding new admirers, more people are getting those beautiful brown lincolns graded and the pops are responding
7) Perhaps its becoming time for a brown, or brown and redbrown only registry (Colorless set still allows red coins)
Chris' Complete Lincoln Variety Set 1909-date
This
Chris' Complete Lincoln Variety Set 1909-date
for me when the coin is so large I find it hard to judge the grade
<< <i>I'll take a straight 66 RD instead, thank you.
Talk about a boring coin.
PCGS 'brown' high grade Lincoln's are always a joy to behold at coin shows and generally and rightfully so demand a premium over their (yawn) red counterparts.
peacockcoins
WS
When I think of BN copper the image I see in mind mind is of a coin that actually has brown color. This coin has little, if any, brown color.
When I opened this thread I was expecting to see a chocolate brown colored Lincoln cent with booming luster and attractive toning of one or more colors other than brown (if there is such a coin).
I like the fact there aren't those annoying carbon spots that so many mint set coins have from that era.
I like the grade.
I like the color.
I feel sorry for PCGS that they are in a "damned if they do and damned if they don't" point on this regarding the color designation.
I don't see it as BN, but I don't see it as RD or RB either. If it doesn't qualify as RD, then RB is next. If it doesn't meet the qualifications for RB, then BN is all that is left.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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<< <i>Eh. You seen one MS67BN Lincoln, you seen em all.
I see what you did there.
8 Reales Madness Collection
A BN designation appears to be a catchall, residual category into which all coins that do not meet the requirements for a RD or a RB designation are placed. The coins that are thus designated as BN cover a wide range of appearances.
To me (and likely to other hobbyists) a BN designation should mean a coin that has significant [whatever that means] amounts of brown color.
Though unlikely to be adopted and implemented, a solution would be to change the BN designation to one that is not a catchall/residual category. Have a BN designation mean that a coin has significant amounts of brown color. Then add a fourth designation [anyone have any ideas for a name?] that is the catchall/residual category into which coins that are neither RD, RB or BN are placed [i.e. a Mint State Lincoln cent that is purple on both sides].
I thought you made this coin Jeff! but just read otherwise... keep trying man. I like your nuclear toned examples better IMO.
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lets hope you mean graded in the past few days.
I would take this color over red any day!!
Anyway, these three coins are not “core” holdings to me, so I may just consign them all to an upcoming Bowers or Teletrade sale. Lauren will, of course, receive a nice “bonus” for her work as she always has in the past when she has slabbed top pop moderns (her speciality), and she has made many thus far.
Coppercolor: May Lauren’s work finally “open the door” to many more MS67BN Lincolns being graded in the future and good luck with you making the very next one!
Wondercoin
It usually does work that way. For years PCGS didn't grade a single 1877 trade dollar in MS65 due to slightly weak stars on the obverse - once the first one made it, a half dozen followed in short order.
Wondercoin
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<< <i>Looks like no history was made as that's a not a BN designation Lincoln. >>
Yup.
Lance.
Larger image
Larger image
There is one 1944 Lincoln graded MS67+RB.
Chris' Complete Lincoln Variety Set 1909-date
<< <i>My 22 year old daughter, Lauren, deserves all the credit for this coin. Lauren splits her time between being a third year Psychology major at Univ. of CA, San Diego and a working numismatist/screener with me (she has been an active screener since 2006). Earlier this month, I visited a safe deposit box I had not been to in a while in my hunt for top end Washington silver quarter candidates (I currently have the top set of Major Variety (93 pc) Silver Mint State Washington quarters and I am putting the finishing touches on the set before the upcoming Registry deadline). I came across a “cache” of lovely toned Mint Set Lincoln cents I had picked up along the way over the past (30) years. I gave the pile of roughly 30-35 coins to Lauren and I asked her to pick me out (3) coins that I should submit. I was a little surprised that (2) of the coins she selected were dated 1956-D and the third coin was a 1957-D. Lauren had so much date/mintmark selection, that, at first, I thought “why submit two of the same date/mintmark”. But, in any event, she picked them out, so I decided to submit them exactly as she picked them. The (3) coins graded MS67BN, MS66+RB and MS66+RB! I think all three coins are now pictured on Coinfacts now, but I did not ask them to be. I believe whenever a pop 1 coin is made, it may automatically be pictured as a matter of course now. The 1956-D MS67BN is pop 1 as is the 1956-D MS66+RB. It looks like the 1957-D she got graded in MS66+RB is actually a pop 2/0 now, but they must have liked it so much, they decided to picture that one as well. Check out all (3) coins on Coinfacts with sequential serial numbers (can someone post pics of the other -2- coins here as well please?)
Anyway, these three coins are not “core” holdings to me, so I may just consign them all to an upcoming Bowers or Teletrade sale. Lauren will, of course, receive a nice “bonus” for her work as she always has in the past when she has slabbed top pop moderns (her speciality), and she has made many thus far.
Coppercolor: May Lauren’s work finally “open the door” to many more MS67BN Lincolns being graded in the future and good luck with you making the very next one!
Wondercoin >>
Great story Mitch, thank you for sharing and congratulations to both you and your daughter.
Coppercolor
Nice story and killer coins!
Wow, that other 56-D is screamer! It's even got a grease filled Rev S in STATES.
That 57-D Obv is really nice and carried it to that grade being that the Rev is what it is.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>May Lauren’s work finally “open the door” to many more MS67BN Lincolns being graded in the future
It usually does work that way. For years PCGS didn't grade a single 1877 trade dollar in MS65 due to slightly weak stars on the obverse - once the first one made it, a half dozen followed in short order. >>
Same with MS67 $20 Saints none until a 1/2 dozen 1923-D's managed to get graded that high.
red is no less then 95%red
red brown must have at least 5% red
brown is default
<< <i>I would agree that it looks like a 67RB, but there is a VERY fine line between what constitutes BN and RB. I have a lincoln that is full RD on the reverse that was graded BN by our sponsors, so go figure. >>
I agree. Looks like it took a 67 RB coin to be the first 67 BN. I was expecting one of those steely blue-brown "toner" Lincolns to be the first 67 BN.
Great story Mitch....thanks for sharing.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Yes, an argument might easily be made that the coin is a solid 67RB example .... and for that matter, a possible 67+RB at that. Ditto for the other 56-D piece as well.
So, if I upgrade the coin to 67RB one day was "history still made"?
Wondercoin
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Gorgeous coin.
Sure looks BN to me.
I'd love to view that coin in hand.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Mitch is of course an amazing guy. And I'm hoping Lauren, who stops by our office often with Mitch, has it in here blood too.
hrh
Thanks Mitch for her!!!!
Regarding the values ... I believe the Guide does show around $55 on the pop 1/0 MS66+RB and $125 or $150 (I forget) on the pop 1/0 MS67BN. This might, indeed, deter folks from submitting coins like this if they figure in a $25, $50 or even $65/coin grading fees (show grading) and see a $55 or $125 Price Guide value on the top pop grade if they are lucky enough to even land one.
Yet ddicated collectors to this field are not shy about reporting purchases of very pretty toned examples at upwards of 25x-50x current Price Guide in some cases.
So, as DH suggests (I believe), perhaps all it might take is a few public auctions of these pieces to develop a better understanding of valuing these pieces, which, in turn, will likely result in much stronger Price Guide values... which, in turn, might result in many more examples being submitted down the road for the "holy grail" grades.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Thanks to all on behalf of myself and Lauren!
Regarding the values ... I believe the Guide does show around $55 on the pop 1/0 MS66+RB and $125 or $150 (I forget) on the pop 1/0 MS67BN. This might, indeed, deter folks from submitting coins like this if they figure in a $25, $50 or even $65/coin grading fees (show grading) and see a $55 or $125 Price Guide value on the top pop grade if they are lucky enough to even land one.
Yet ddicated collectors to this field are not shy about reporting purchases of very pretty toned examples at upwards of 25x-50x current Price Guide in some cases.
So, as DH suggests (I believe), perhaps all it might take is a few public auctions of these pieces to develop a better understanding of valuing these pieces, which, in turn, will likely result in much stronger Price Guide values... which, in turn, might result in many more examples being submitted down the road for the "holy grail" grades.
Wondercoin >>
+1
Wondercoin you express things so well sometimes there's almost no point in following. So...
For what it's worth I've never paid less than 2x price guide for an attractively toned "brown" coin, usually it takes "red brown" pricing to buy the attractive pieces and I rarely studder when I have to shell out the big big multiples on those rare and special looking coins. Talk about buying the coin and not the holder.....
Thanks,
Coppercolor
PCGS MS67 BN
Here is the breakdown that PCGS uses for Color Classification on Copper Coins:
RED (RD) = Greater than 95% original mint copper color
RED-BROWN (RB) = Between 5% and 95% original mint copper color
BROWN (BN) = Less than 5% original mint copper color
Note that the percentages are based on a SUMMATION of both the obverse and reverse.
Though this coin does have some salmon-pink (reddish) color in it, near the rim on the obverse, and through the middle on the reverse --
that salmon pink color is NOT original mint fresh copper color.
So if you pulled out a freshly minted 2012 copper penny and laid it next to this MS67 BN coin ...
Just ask yourself if you think this coin has more than or less than 5% of that mint fresh coppery color in it?"
If it has more than 5% coppery color, then it’s a RB.
If it has less than 5% coppery color, then it’s a BN.
I think, based on the photo only, that this coin was CORRECTLY categorized as BN.
I have not seen the coin in hand, so I can only go by the photo.
However the PCGS graders did see the coin in hand, and I trust their assessment on this one.
By the way, just because Third Party Grading Company's (TPG's) use the term Brown or BN, it does NOT mean the coin has to be brown in color.
A coin can actually be ANY color other than the original mint fresh copper to qualify as a BN.
Many Brown (BN) coins can flash colors of purple, blue, green, pink, orange, yellow, and even RED
(however the red color that shows in a Brown (BN) classified coin is not a coppery "red", but more of a salmon-pink "red").
That salmon pink color is actually a discoloration from the original mint fresh copper color.
(Are you confused yet? It's really not that hard to understand if you break it down.)
Perhaps rather than using the terms RD, RB, and BN color categories,
it might have been clearer if the TPG's started off using terms like MC (mostly copper), PC (partly copper), and LC (little copper) to denote color categories.
But most of us are so used to the RD, RB, and BN categories that using anything else seems strange and awkward beyond belief!
If you just remember that RED (RD) does not mean red, it means mint fresh copper color --
and BROWN (BN) does not mean brown, it means anything other than mint fresh copper color --
then you have this whole color classification system down pat.
Offered below are some screen captures of coins that PCGS classified as BN, RB, and RD.
By the way, there may appear to be some questionable calls on a few coins in these screen captures on the color designation.
In PCGS's defense, coins can often continue to discolor years after slabbing, so a designation is really what it was when it was slabbed only.
Plus, you have to defer to the graders assessment since they saw the coin in hand, and we are looking at photos only.
But overall you get a general flavor of what a BN vs. RB vs. RD copper looks like.
Just a final note that MOST of the copper coins that PCGS grades are designated as Red-Brown (RB), due to the wide range of allowed Mint Fresh copper color (5% to 95%).
So a RB coin can look MOSTLY RED (coppery) or MOSTLY BROWN (any other color!) ... so RB coins have the WIDEST RANGE of looks.
The POPULATIONS of Copper Mint State or Proof Brown (BN) coins can often be LOWEST tabulated (for some/most dates at least) since to qualify over 95% of the coin had to discolor from the original mint red.
Also some of the highest prices paid in auctions were for (so called) "Brown" coins that were wildly colorful.
In these cases, the price guide paradigm that RD coins are valued highest, then RB, then BNs are cheapest -- can be thrown out.
Wildly colorful, attractive, and unique BN coins can sometimes sell for many times their (more common) RD counterparts.
PCGS Graded Brown (BN) coins
PCGS Graded Red-Brown (RB) coins
PCGS Graded Red (RD) coins
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
You have certainly inspired me to submit many more specimens for grading over the next few months!
Keep up the great work!
Wondercoin