Why doesn't the Hall of Fame value defense?

orioles93

Just wondering what everyone's opinions were on the value that the Hall of Fame puts on defensive ability. Why do great hitters and great pitchers get more credibility than great defensive players? It is a very important part of the game. I think that players like Frank White, Mark Belanger, George Scott, and Keith Hernandez should be respected by the Hall of Fame for their defense more than they are, as it shows in the voting percentages. Just looking for some input.

jeffcbay

Do you think Omar Vizquel should get into the HOF? That is, if he ever retires... he's 45 years old in his 24 MLB season. Arguably the best overall defensive player in the modern era.

(from Wiki)

Defense:
All-time leader in double plays made while playing shortstop
11-time Gold Glove recipient
Oldest shortstop recipient of the Gold Glove (age 38 in 2005, and again at age 39 in 2006)
Highest career fielding percentage by a shortstop (0.9846) with at least 1,000 games played
Lowest number of errors in a season by a shortstop (tie) (3 in the 2000 season)
6th in assists all-time, 3rd in assists at SS all-time

Offense:
All-time leader in hits by a player from Venezuela
The 47th major league player to reach 2800 career hits (April 3, 2011)
Second-most hits by an active (roster) player behind Derek Jeter, was the category leader for the 2008 and a portion of the 2009 seasons, 47th all-time
Most singles by an active (roster) player, 20th all-time
Most at-bats by an active (roster) player, 19th all-time
Fifth all-time in sacrifice hits plus sacrifice flies behind Eddie Collins, Jake Daubert, Stuffy McInnis & Willie Keeler (sacrifice flies were separated out into their own statistical category in 1954)
All-time leader in sacrifice hits in the live-ball era (nearly twice the second active player), 4 time league leader (1997, 1999, 2004 & 2005)
Likely 5th to 7th all-time in sacrifice hits after accounting for the 1954 statistical change (40th all-time without adjustment)
Second-most sacrifice flies by an active (roster) player behind Alex Rodriguez, 50th all time (tie)
Third most stolen bases by an active (roster) player behind Juan Pierre and Carl Crawford, 68th all-time
American League record holder (tie) for most hits in a nine-inning game: Vizquel hit six on August 31, 2004
Second-most hits while playing shortstop (behind Derek Jeter)
Fourth-most runs while playing shortstop all-time (behind Herman Long, Derek Jeter and Bill Dahlen)
Seventh-most stolen bases while playing shortstop all-time (behind Bert Campaneris, Ozzie Smith, Herman Long, Luis Aparicio, Honus Wagner, and Bill Dahlen)
Most seasons by active player as a batting title qualifier with isolated power (extra bases per at-bat) under .100, with 12.

Overall:
All-time leader in games played at shortstop
Most games played by an active (roster) player, 14th all-time
3-time All-Star (1998, 1999 & 2002)
Won 2 American League Championships (with Cleveland, 1995, 1997)
Won 6 American League Central Division Championships (with Cleveland, 1995–99, 2001)
Won the Hutch Award (1996), the only non-American player ever to do so
Won the Willie Mac Award (2006) for spirit and leadership
Finalist for the Heart & Hustle Award (2007) for embodying "the values, spirit and tradition of the game"
Captain of Venezuelan World Baseball Classic team (2006)
Member of the Hispanic Heritage Baseball Museum Hall of Fame

ledsters

They must value defense, Ozzie Smith made it in as the best modern day shortstop.

orioles93

I think Vizquel is a first ballot hall of famer. He is like ozzie smith, not great hitters, but atleast have decent stats and were competent with the bat. Im talking about guys like Mark Belanger who were pretty much defensive specialists and not known for their hitting at all. Should these guys be given more respect?

grote15

Bill Mazeroski.

NVbaseball

The Hall-of-Fame voters mostly have valued defense appropriately (Mazeroski is a perfect example of overvaluing defense, but that was from the Veterans Committee who have inducted over 90% of unqualified players)

Scoring runs and stopping the other team from scoring runs are all that matters. By far what matters most to stop the other team from scoring is pitching. Probably at least 80%. The other 20% is then divided by all eight guys in the field

Hernandez would have been a good choice. Best defensive firstbaseman in history along with a .384 obp

Vizquel and Belanger are well below Trammell among shortstops. Frank White is well below Grich and Whitaker among secondbaseman. George Scott is no where close to Bagwell. So there is no way those examples show the Hall-of-Fame voters overlooking defense

Along with Grich, any of the very good defensive players who might make reasonable candidates -- eg Fred Lynn, Dwight Evans, Larry Walker -- are so because they were both excellent hitters and fielders

NVbaseball

Bill Freehan is another top defensive player perhaps overlooked. Though not as good as Torre and possibly behind Simmons among catchers. Yet he was top 10 in OPS three times. Was Mark Belanger ever in the top 100?

Ironmanfan

Vizquel isn't getting in on any first ballot

miconelegacy

Jeff thanks for sharing all those stats and numbers. Wow. Should be a HOFer IMO.

Mdube16

Brooks Robinson isnt in there for his 268 HR and .267 BA

Yankees001

The hall has many great fielders, hitters, pitchers, baserunners and managers. My problem is all the average to below average people.

Which is why the hall is a joke, and will never be a special place in my opinion.

Dave

ClockworkAngel

I think the biggest injustice right now is Keith Hernandez. You mentioned him for his defense and he was one of the best defensive first basemen ever, but he was also one of the best offensive 1st basemen during his time. He was a complete player and more than anything he was one of the best clutch hitters I've ever seen. When you played the Cardinals or Mets the last guy you wanted up there with the guy on the line was Hernandez. 1979 MVp, 3 World Championships as the #3 hitter, overall good guy. I think he should be in the HOF. If Jim Rice is in, Hernandez should be in

vintagechris

To add some more thought, I have always believed in football, that Kickers, punters and return men should get more consideration. I still believe Herschel Walker and Brian Mitchell should be HOF'ers. Their all purpose yards #'s are incredible.

Hank36

Defensive statistics can be tricky. Graig Nettles was always noted for his defense during his playing days, although I would imagine younger people looking at his career stats and wondering why--I think he only won a single Gold Glove, and while his high chance total is testament to his range, it didn't help his fielding average any. It's got to be even tougher when looking at the defensive stats for a first baseman--Keith Hernandez was a great one, but I'm not sure what statistic I'd point to that might back me up.

Mind you, I'm not one of those people who points to stats as a players be-all and end-all as far as the HOF goes. But I'm still scratching my head wondering how Travis Jackson got into Cooperstown as a shortstop.

MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly

Who cares! The HOF voting system is a joke anyway. 90% of baseball writers are wannabee, elitist snobs who think that by not voting for a player they are in some way impacting baseball history. The fact that there has never been a 100% inductee is proof of this. I mean, how the F is Hank Aaron not a 100%er? How is Schmidt not a 100%er, and so on.

For the record I do not think Mattingly is HOF worthy, BUT if guys like Tony Perez, Rice, Kirby, Rizzuto, Maz etc. are in, then Mattingly should get more consideration than he has gotten IMO.

And if your talking about Vizquel and Keith Hernandez being worthy due to their defense, then Mattingly is worthy. Don was almost as good as Hernandez defensively, but he was twice the offensive player Keith was.

CollectorAtWork

I think in general, it's a lot easier to find players who can play great defense than those who can hit a baseball at 95mph w/ movement. Teams don't want those players and the Hall of Fame doesn't either. Also, some of the awards for Gold Gloves have been a joke (e.g., Palmiero and Jeter in recent years). If you're a great fielder w/ multiple Gold Gloves, you have to be a least a decent middle of the line-up hitter. The position the player plays matters also. If you're a 1st baseman, you're expected to have much better avg and power numbers than players at other positions. Same thing w/ 3rd base and corner outfield positions. If you're a 2nd baseman or shortstop or catcher, you can probably get away w/ worse overall batting numbers. Hernandez has decent numbers, but then you can also argue that Steve Garvey and Dale Murphy should get in also.