Same PCGS Cert#, Same PCGS Label Type, Different Auction, Different Coin!?! What's going on here???

renomedphys · May 21, 2012 7:22AM

So, today I received this coin in the mail. Prior to bidding on the coin, I did a Cert Verification and found the coin had appeared in a Heritage Auction, which led me to believe that Teletrade's photos were just not that flattering. Now I have the coin in hand, and although there is no doubt about the coin matching the TT photo, it is obviously not the same coin that appeared in the Heritage auction three years ago.

PCGS' database would lead you to believe that this exact coin had appeared in all the previous auctions, and now resides in my collection.

I would be very interested in what PCGS' take on this is. Although the coin I received is a nice one, it is honestly not that much better (if at all) from several 67's I've owned, and it makes me wonder whether or not I'm dealing with a FAKE.

Staircoins · May 21, 2012 7:34AM

Certainly does not look like the same coin to me. The Heritage coin appears much nicer than the TT image.

illini420 · May 21, 2012 7:42AM

I don't think they are the same either. Each coin has a single decent sized hit on the O of ONE on the reverse... but they are in different places???

Not sure how this happens... hopefully someone with some experience in this matter can help.

dragon · May 21, 2012 7:44AM

I think they are the same coin and it may have been reholdered since the Heritage sale.

I say same coin because of one marker which is the tiny spot just under the 4 in the date.

renomedphys · May 21, 2012 8:01AM

Label is slightly different too. Different relative positions of numbers and bar code marks. Also, my barcode marks appear thicker.

Nothing about the slab says FAKE, but it sure is unnerving to think that a clever counterfeiter could place a nice 66 into a 68 holder and sell it on Teletrade.

devious · May 21, 2012 8:24AM

I want to say that I think the coins are different. But I do not know the photo imaging techniques used by both auction houses and how they could possibly make the coin appear different. I see a more pristine coin via Heritage than TT. I do not see the marks matching up. Even the one underneath the four. Erm. Keep us posted!

TomB · May 21, 2012 8:42AM

They aren't the same coin. My first thought was that it could have been reholdered since the coin was not seated straight up and down in the holder in the Heritage sale whereas it currently is straight up and down. However, there are hits are in different spots.

Bubblehead · May 21, 2012 8:50AM

<< I don't think they are the same either. Each coin has a single decent sized hit on the O of ONE on the reverse... but they are in different places???

Not sure how this happens... hopefully someone with some experience in this matter can help. >>

I must agree here... I also see differences in the Heritage E and N in "CENT;" bothering, isn't it?

ebaytrader · May 21, 2012 9:00AM

<< They aren't the same coin. ... However, there are hits are in different spots. >>

After careful observation, they are most definitely not the same coin.

ColonialCoinUnion · May 21, 2012 9:01AM

I did not study the images side by side, but just based on the comments here, I'd say that if it walks like a duck . . .

commoncents05 · May 21, 2012 9:14AM

Not the same coin.

-Paul

kaz · May 21, 2012 9:20AM

Too many differences in marks on the obv to be the same, imo. I would be very interested in eventually finding out what happened here.

ArizonaJack · May 21, 2012 9:29AM

Somethings wrong here, they are not same coin.

Edit: Perhaps it's just imaging but something smells funny

BigMoose · May 21, 2012 9:35AM

Matt, those are definitely not the same coin. This could get very interesting.

dragon · May 21, 2012 11:15AM

For those who believe they are not the same coin, how do you account for the tiny dark spot just under horizontal line in the 4 on both the Heritage and Teletrade pics? It would seem a million to one shot two different coins having that same exact spot in the same exact place.

Unknown · May 21, 2012 11:28AM

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Nunfa0 · May 21, 2012 11:29AM

Ok so the little black spot is similar. But what about the moving mark on the O in one and the missing mark on the E in cent on the TT coin?

tjc2120 · May 21, 2012 11:31AM

It does not appear to be the same coin to me. I agree the bar code looks off (all bars thicker) and the font is different in subtle ways that are not easy to describe but the 4 in 1943 stands out most to me as does the distance between the serial number and the bar code.

joebb21 · May 21, 2012 11:35AM

wow.
That teletrade coin is a really good fake...

stealer · May 21, 2012 11:41AM

HA one exhibits a nice die crack across Lincoln's skull. TT does not. Not the same coin IMO. Also, TT exhibits two marks above "LIBERTY" on obverse that the lighting should've caught on the HA picture considering the position of the luster bands.

Also, a vertical die crack on bust of Lincoln on the HA coin that does not appear on the TT coin.

tjc2120 · May 21, 2012 11:45AM

<< HA one exhibits a nice die crack across Lincoln's skull. TT does not. Not the same coin IMO. Also, TT exhibits two marks above "LIBERTY" on obverse that the lighting should've caught on the HA picture considering the position of the luster bands. >>

That die crack and the one from the top of Lincoln's head to the rim right past W sealed it for me too.

segoja · May 21, 2012 11:47AM

so a 68 Lincoln has 2 hits in the obverse fields???

The look of the Heritage coin is much much better than the TT coin.

coppermonger · May 21, 2012 11:52AM

Each was shot in a very different light... the HA pic is very bright and might be drowning out the imperfections seen in the Teletrade picture? I'm trying to optimistic here, but they don't look like the same coin.

edited to include pic

stealer · May 21, 2012 12:04PM

Look at 7 o'clock on the bust. There is a pretty huge horizontal gash across the bust that doesn't show up on the HA picture.

No matter how bad the lighting of the HA picture, no way it drowned out that gash.

truthteller · May 21, 2012 12:04PM

I hope the buyer takes advantage of the Teletrade return policy.

TRUTH

AUandAG · May 21, 2012 12:22PM

The Heritage coin has a die crack from the rim through the W in WE to the head that
continues down through Lincolns shoulder and off into the rim. Not the same coin.
bob

dragon · May 21, 2012 12:36PM

This coin has a long auction history at Heritage and has been reholdered at least twice since it was initially graded.

I still say same coin.....and here's what I think happened.

The Heritage pics make the coin look more vibrant and original looking with a bit of color. The TT pics make the coin appear bright and somewhat washed out looking with at least a couple of extra spots here and there.

I say the coin was at sometime after the last Heritage sale sent in for either a downgrade review or reholder service and the coin may have been treated with something at that time and then reholdered into a newer gen. holder retaining the original serial number.

TomB · May 21, 2012 12:52PM

As mentioned earlier, these are different coins. Forget lighting, look at the hits on the reverses. Both images are clear enough to see that they do not match up. The Heritage image shows a clear gash on the lower left side of O in ONE whereas the TT image shows such a hit on the upper left side of the letter. The Heritage image shows a deep gash on the lowest crossbar of the E in CENT yet that area is devoid of marks in the TT image. The N and T in UNITED also have decent hits in the Heritage image that are not present in the TT image. Also, E PLURIBUS UNUM is well struck on the TT coin, but the Heritage image shows flat letters for E PLU.

GrumpyEd · May 21, 2012 1:19PM

I was looking at the mintmark position to try to see if it's the same and it does look like the same position. So I can't say they're different based on the mintmark position.

The coins look different, none of the hits that I see are on both coins and the die crack only shows on one coin.
I don't think the pics can hide all traces of the hits so I'm thinking it's a different coin.

Very strange indeed!

lkeigwin · May 21, 2012 1:58PM

I don't see how anyone could say these are the same coins.
Lance.

Dennis88 · May 21, 2012 2:09PM

They are definitely different coins; hits on both obverse and reverse do not match. Lightning can change the appearance of a coin but can not change the location of hits.

That said, I am very suspicious of the Teletrade coin, not so much because of the coin itself, but more because of the label. While the lettering seems to match a genuine label the barcode is not as well defined as has to be expected. I think what we have here is one of the better fakes that I have seen.

To the OP: Get another PCGS coin and tap with a pen or your finger on the side of the holder, than do the same thing with this coin from Teletrade. All known fakes of PCGS holders that I have seen have a noticeably different pitch (higher) compared to a genuine slab. If it sounds different I'm 99.9% sure that it is a fake, with the evidence we have so far I'm at least 95% sure.

Good luck,

Dennis

mkman123 · May 21, 2012 2:19PM

Definitely looks like two different coins

morgandollar1878 · May 21, 2012 2:27PM

Not even close to being the same coin IMO.

PCcoins · May 21, 2012 10:46PM

<< Not even close to being the same coin IMO. >>

+1

The TT coin looks 66 to me

kryptonitecomics · May 21, 2012 10:58PM

I have to agree with others....I know lighting can do funny things when comparing images but there is just too many marks that are clearly different for me to say these are the same coin???

messydesk · May 21, 2012 11:25PM

I'd be kind of cheesed if I were to receive the TT coin as a 68. There's a hit on the shoulder and, worse, a spot by the D in GOD that are unbecoming of that grade. Reverse marks on the O in ONE and E in CENT are also not a match between the two coins.

I would also be interested in PCGS's take on this.

codamyer · May 21, 2012 11:31PM

100% not the same coin!! Even if the Heritage photos were Photoshopped, still not the same coin. Die cracks are a dead give away on all steel cents!! All steel cents have some corrosion and thats also a marker to check for. Thats a MS66 in that holder now!!

joebb21 · May 21, 2012 11:54PM

the plot thickens

mbogoman · May 22, 2012 12:00AM

The missing die crack and the hits make it clear that they are not the same coin. Even with the inferior Teletrade photos, those attributes should show.

renomedphys · May 22, 2012 12:09AM

So I guess the big question is: Do I send this coin back to Teletrade and let them sort it out, or do I send it to PCGS and let them sort it out?

Edited to add: I have also pulled the coin from my registry, at least until I get this figured out.

mbogoman · May 22, 2012 12:26AM

<< So I guess the big question is: Do I send this coin back to Teletrade and let them sort it out, or do I send it to PCGS and let them sort it out? >>

PCGS will know if they have re-holdered it since it sold at heritage in Feb. 2009. You may be able to get that info with a phone call - I don't know. In any case, if they will confirm that the coin hasn't been re-holdered since then, the one from Teletrade is in a counterfeit holder. In looking at the label again, it doesn't look right. I would consult with PCGS on this and see what they advise...

golden · May 22, 2012 12:37AM

Please keep us up to date.

messydesk · May 22, 2012 12:41AM

<< 

<< So I guess the big question is: Do I send this coin back to Teletrade and let them sort it out, or do I send it to PCGS and let them sort it out? >>

I would consult with PCGS on this and see what they advise... >>

Seems to me the best place to start as well.

Batman23 · May 22, 2012 12:50AM

I would say definately not the same coin based on the photos. Does your coin "in hand" display just one or both of the reverse hits on the O in ONE? If just one then it is not lighting. If both marks are present then it my be a lighting thing.

Please keep us posted.

renomedphys · May 22, 2012 1:05AM

<< I would say definately not the same coin based on the photos. Does your coin "in hand" display just one or both of the reverse hits on the O in ONE? If just one then it is not lighting. If both marks are present then it my be a lighting thing.

Please keep us posted. >>

It was viewing it in hand that clued me in to that in the first place. There were missing hits that I expected to see based on the Heritage photo.

JamesM · May 22, 2012 1:05AM

So what is the theory here?

The defrauding party took a ~66 in a PCGS holder and swapped out the insert for a coin that has not traded in a few years?

The coin and the holder both look real to me.

I would seem that the party involved in this type of fraud would have to have a high level of numismatic knowledge to find coins that are so similar in appearance that one could think that the coin was merely overgraded.

I guess this type of fraud only adds to the adage, “buy the coin not the holder”.

truthteller · May 22, 2012 1:21AM

<< So I guess the big question is: Do I send this coin back to Teletrade and let them sort it out, or do I send it to PCGS and let them sort it out?

Edited to add: I have also pulled the coin from my registry, at least until I get this figured out. >>

Return the coin to Teletrade ASAP. This is not your problem and Teletrade is essentially "down the street" from PCGS.

TRUTH

stealer · May 22, 2012 1:31AM

That's one good fake if that's not a real slab.

Can anyone track down the current owner of the HA example?

TomB · May 22, 2012 2:09AM

I don't know what happened to end up with two apparently different coins with the same cert number, but it seems most folks are looking at this event as an example of intentional fraud or of a counterfeit. Might it also be possible that there had been a glitch at PCGS and two coins were given the same cert number? I would think PCGS might be able to help.

MikeInFL · May 22, 2012 2:13AM

Those don't look like the same coin to me.

Either one of them is a fake, or PCGS made a mistake in reusing a certification number [edited to add, I see Tom arrived at a similar conclusion].

truthteller · May 22, 2012 2:23AM

<< I don't know what happened to end up with two apparently different coins with the same cert number, but it seems most folks are looking at this event as an example of intentional fraud or of a counterfeit. Might it also be possible that there had been a glitch at PCGS and two coins were given the same cert number? I would think PCGS might be able to help. >>

I can see two coins having identical certification numbers, but not for the same coin of the same grade. A cert number is randomly assigned, so a coin that is a Morgan dollar might have the same cert number of a Lincoln cent, if an error truly occurred. To have two identical coins of the identical grade of the same cert number is beyond chance.

TRUTH

Same PCGS Cert#, Same PCGS Label Type, Different Auction, Different Coin!?! What's going on here???

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