<< <i>So I guess the big question is: Do I send this coin back to Teletrade and let them sort it out, or do I send it to PCGS and let them sort it out?
Edited to add: I have also pulled the coin from my registry, at least until I get this figured out. >>
Return the coin to Teletrade ASAP. This is not your problem and Teletrade is essentially "down the street" from PCGS. TRUTH >>
I agree. I'd return it, point TT to this thread, and let them sort it out. I believe they are honest enough and won't simply relist it.
It would be interesting to deal with PCGS directly, instead, to learn what went wrong and how things are to be resolved, but it's bound to take a little time. In the meantime your money is tied up and there is absolutely no upside to you. Lance.
First of all, do you like the coin? Do you feel it is a properly graded MS68? If not, I would send it to PCGS and let them review it. If its fake, TT will refund your money. If it is overgraded PCGS or TT will refund your money. And if its properly graded, you wasted your time and a little more money. But just sending it into TT now will mean someone else is going to be upset too if the coin is fake or has wrong grade.
PCGS knows about this coin now. Contact them and see if they want the coin, or if you should send it back to Teletrade. It is always possible that two coins were unintentionally switched during the reholder operation, but very unlikely.
<< <i> PCGS' database would lead you to believe that this exact coin had appeared in all the previous auctions, and now resides in my collection.
I would be very interested in what PCGS' take on this is. Although the coin I received is a nice one, it is honestly not that much better (if at all) from several 67's I've owned, and it makes me wonder whether or not I'm dealing with a FAKE. >>
I believe you are possibly dealing with a fake. I looked at all the Heritage auctions with that PCGS #. All 5 have the same coin for sale and appears legitimate. The original coin was in 4 auctions in a slab that shows the series & coin numbers. Between 2006 & Feb. 2009 the coin was reslabbed in one that does not show the series & coin numbers, but has a reverse hologram with "PCGS NASDAQ:CLCT" on it. This slab has three sealant dots in a triangle shape that can be seen in the ring above the coin's reverse and below the coin on the obverse. These dots are not on your slab. Here are both slabs for comparison with the teletrade coin on the left & HA coin on the right.
Notice on the Teletrade slab how the barcode is smaller, blurry and harder to see. Also the letters & numbers are in heavier script and not as fine as the one on the right and the row of numbers sits very close to the barcode. I think it is a very suspicious piece. I've also included an image of my coin to compare with the Teletrade piece. Even though mine has the series & coin #'s one can still see the difference in the barcode & separation between the row of numbers.
Could you show a bigger, better image of your slabs obv. & one of the hologram, which was covered for the Teletrade auction?
The easiest way to see that the label is different is to look at the left-most angle of the last "4" in the cert number and where it lies in relation to the barcode line below it.
960 Coins - Rare and high quality 960 Reis overstrikes and counterstamps from Brazil and more. http://blog.960coins.com - All about the 960 Reis coins. Check my BST!
http://forum2.ikegroup.info/viewtopic.php?f=713&t=1225 About 2 years ago I went along as a witness when 5 "fake Holders" were purchased. From my experience I would "not" send this to PCGS. To many "questions" were left in my mind as to who they were interested in protecting, the collector or their impression of reliability. This I a long story with no resolution to date, see above link. Bill Link to IkeGroup Forum about Fake PCGS Holders
MyThoughts are only as valuable as the price being paid for them
Life is like a coin that you can spend anyway you wish,... but which.... can only be spent once.
The Chinese counterfeiters will sell just the plastic slabs. (An email i sent a year ago confirms this.) Get your own insert from a genuine slab and sandwich your own holder ( with a slightly overgraded specimen) and a scoundrel is in business.
^ Just to add, we usually question the coin and the insert and if both are genuine won't question the plastic.
And, if the opportunist really wants to pull a fast one send the coin back to PCGS for a TrueView. There it is removed from the slab, photographed and reslabbed (with the same insert) before making its way back to the submitter.
Braddick, your comments are chilling. Those are all thoughts that have crossed my mind in the past; ie. how easy it would be if I just had two halves of a holder to just "undo" a bad crackout. Taken to the next level, a very unscrupulous numismatist could easily move a $20 coin into a $1000 holder.
And sure, it's easy to quote the old adage: "buy the coin, not the holder", but in a world where everybody cannot attend auctions in person, and in a case where coins just don't come up for auction all that often, buyers like myself will often just take a chance. A non-diligent buyer could very easily put the matter to bed as soon as the coin arrives, never giving it another thought. A lifelong collector may just as well put the coin in the SDB and the market would be none the wiser for decades.
This is just another reminder that we should never accept coins that we deem overgraded, and we must all be diligent to research all of our meaningful purchases.
I brought the coin down to Northern Nevada Coins and showed it to Allen. Great guy. Well, he and just about every other "coin guy" in the shop were highly intrigued by my seemingly counterfeit slab. They pulled out a bunch of PCGS slabs and tried to match mine up to any of theirs to see just how good the counterfeit was. These are the things they found:
1) The blue field of the insert was off. On a genuine PCGS label, some white color bleeds through the blue color creating a cloudy textured look. The counterfeit label was just plain blue.
2) The hologram was not only the wrong size, but noticeably less crisp than a genuine hologram. Also, the PCGS hologram seemed to have micro print in the hologram that just looked like rubbish on the fake. Also, different parts of the hologram were different colors.
3) The opacity of the plastic is wrong. Hard to tell straight on, but from the side it was pretty obvious.
4) I actually noticed that on a genuine label, it is pretty easy to see the "glue dot" that adheres the label to the plastic when you hold it up to the light. On the fake, there is still a dot of sorts, but it is exceptionally difficult to see, and is the wrong size and in the wrong location (bigger, slightly higher).
5) We were unable to locate a single slab of the same generation that had such poorly defined barcode lines.
Otherwise, they were very impressed with how good the fake was, and commented a few times that it would be pretty easy to pass this off to a dealer that wasn't paying too close of attention. Also, it was mentioned how bad stuff like this is for confidence in the market. Scary stuff.
That's it for now. Tomorrow, I think I'm going to send it back to Teletrade. Cory actually called me yesterday regarding this. He seemed very interested in the case, and made sure to let me know that I have nothing to worry about. He also told me that TT would be dealing with this on their end.
All genuine PCGS slabs have a slight blue tint within the plastic. All the fake slabs I have seen are missing the tint and are clear color. When you place a fake slab next to a real slab, the blue tint stands out.
"That's it for now. Tomorrow, I think I'm going to send it back to Teletrade. Cory actually called me yesterday regarding this. He seemed very interested in the case, and made sure to let me know that I have nothing to worry about. He also told me that TT would be dealing with this on their end."
Well done on TT's part. They will get to the bottom of it with their consignor (who will likely need to check his records on where he bought it, etc) and keep PCGS updated.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>So, today I received this coin in the mail. Prior to bidding on the coin, I did a Cert Verification and found the coin had appeared in a Heritage Auction, which led me to believe that Teletrade's photos were just not that flattering. Now I have the coin in hand, and although there is no doubt about the coin matching the TT photo, it is obviously not the same coin that appeared in the Heritage auction three years ago.
PCGS' database would lead you to believe that this exact coin had appeared in all the previous auctions, and now resides in my collection.
I would be very interested in what PCGS' take on this is. Although the coin I received is a nice one, it is honestly not that much better (if at all) from several 67's I've owned, and it makes me wonder whether or not I'm dealing with a FAKE. >>
Send it to PCGS for validation. Easy Peasy!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>So I guess the big question is: Do I send this coin back to Teletrade and let them sort it out, or do I send it to PCGS and let them sort it out?
Edited to add: I have also pulled the coin from my registry, at least until I get this figured out. >>
Return the coin to Teletrade ASAP. This is not your problem and Teletrade is essentially "down the street" from PCGS.
TRUTH >>
I agree. I'd return it, point TT to this thread, and let them sort it out. I believe they are honest enough and won't simply relist it.
It would be interesting to deal with PCGS directly, instead, to learn what went wrong and how things are to be resolved, but it's bound to take a little time. In the meantime your money is tied up and there is absolutely no upside to you.
Lance.
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>First of all, do you like the coin? Do you feel it is a properly graded MS68? >>
No. As a 68, I don't like it.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
should send it back to Teletrade. It is always possible that two coins were unintentionally
switched during the reholder operation, but very unlikely.
<< <i>
PCGS' database would lead you to believe that this exact coin had appeared in all the previous auctions, and now resides in my collection.
I would be very interested in what PCGS' take on this is. Although the coin I received is a nice one, it is honestly not that much better (if at all) from several 67's I've owned, and it makes me wonder whether or not I'm dealing with a FAKE. >>
I believe you are possibly dealing with a fake. I looked at all the Heritage auctions with that PCGS #. All 5 have the same coin for sale and appears legitimate.
The original coin was in 4 auctions in a slab that shows the series & coin numbers. Between 2006 & Feb. 2009 the coin was reslabbed in one that does not
show the series & coin numbers, but has a reverse hologram with "PCGS NASDAQ:CLCT" on it. This slab has three sealant dots in a triangle shape that can
be seen in the ring above the coin's reverse and below the coin on the obverse. These dots are not on your slab.
Here are both slabs for comparison with the teletrade coin on the left & HA coin on the right.
Notice on the Teletrade slab how the barcode is smaller, blurry and harder to see. Also the letters & numbers are in heavier script and not as fine as the one on
the right and the row of numbers sits very close to the barcode. I think it is a very suspicious piece. I've also included an image of my coin to compare with the
Teletrade piece. Even though mine has the series & coin #'s one can still see the difference in the barcode & separation between the row of numbers.
Could you show a bigger, better image of your slabs obv. & one of the hologram, which was covered for the Teletrade auction?
R.I.P. Bear
http://blog.960coins.com - All about the 960 Reis coins.
Check my BST!
Best,
Eric
I'd shoot a photo of the slab but it's offsite in a vault.
Lance.
Either way, the coin from TT is definitely not the coin from HA.
Life is like a coin that you can spend anyway you wish,... but which.... can only be spent once.
About 2 years ago I went along as a witness when 5 "fake Holders" were purchased.
From my experience I would "not" send this to PCGS.
To many "questions" were left in my mind as to who they were interested in protecting, the collector or their impression of reliability.
This I a long story with no resolution to date, see above link.
Bill
Link to IkeGroup Forum about Fake PCGS Holders
Life is like a coin that you can spend anyway you wish,... but which.... can only be spent once.
peacockcoins
Just to add, we usually question the coin and the insert and if both are genuine won't question the plastic.
And, if the opportunist really wants to pull a fast one send the coin back to PCGS for a TrueView. There it is removed from the slab, photographed and reslabbed (with the same insert) before making its way back to the submitter.
peacockcoins
And sure, it's easy to quote the old adage: "buy the coin, not the holder", but in a world where everybody cannot attend auctions in person, and in a case where coins just don't come up for auction all that often, buyers like myself will often just take a chance. A non-diligent buyer could very easily put the matter to bed as soon as the coin arrives, never giving it another thought. A lifelong collector may just as well put the coin in the SDB and the market would be none the wiser for decades.
This is just another reminder that we should never accept coins that we deem overgraded, and we must all be diligent to research all of our meaningful purchases.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I brought the coin down to Northern Nevada Coins and showed it to Allen. Great guy. Well, he and just about every other "coin guy" in the shop were highly intrigued by my seemingly counterfeit slab. They pulled out a bunch of PCGS slabs and tried to match mine up to any of theirs to see just how good the counterfeit was. These are the things they found:
1) The blue field of the insert was off. On a genuine PCGS label, some white color bleeds through the blue color creating a cloudy textured look. The counterfeit label was just plain blue.
2) The hologram was not only the wrong size, but noticeably less crisp than a genuine hologram. Also, the PCGS hologram seemed to have micro print in the hologram that just looked like rubbish on the fake. Also, different parts of the hologram were different colors.
3) The opacity of the plastic is wrong. Hard to tell straight on, but from the side it was pretty obvious.
4) I actually noticed that on a genuine label, it is pretty easy to see the "glue dot" that adheres the label to the plastic when you hold it up to the light. On the fake, there is still a dot of sorts, but it is exceptionally difficult to see, and is the wrong size and in the wrong location (bigger, slightly higher).
5) We were unable to locate a single slab of the same generation that had such poorly defined barcode lines.
Otherwise, they were very impressed with how good the fake was, and commented a few times that it would be pretty easy to pass this off to a dealer that wasn't paying too close of attention. Also, it was mentioned how bad stuff like this is for confidence in the market. Scary stuff.
That's it for now. Tomorrow, I think I'm going to send it back to Teletrade. Cory actually called me yesterday regarding this. He seemed very interested in the case, and made sure to let me know that I have nothing to worry about. He also told me that TT would be dealing with this on their end.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
TRUTH
Well done on TT's part. They will get to the bottom of it with their consignor (who will likely need to check his records on where he bought it, etc) and keep PCGS updated.
Wondercoin
<< <i>So, today I received this coin in the mail. Prior to bidding on the coin, I did a Cert Verification and found the coin had appeared in a Heritage Auction, which led me to believe that Teletrade's photos were just not that flattering. Now I have the coin in hand, and although there is no doubt about the coin matching the TT photo, it is obviously not the same coin that appeared in the Heritage auction three years ago.
PCGS' database would lead you to believe that this exact coin had appeared in all the previous auctions, and now resides in my collection.
I would be very interested in what PCGS' take on this is. Although the coin I received is a nice one, it is honestly not that much better (if at all) from several 67's I've owned, and it makes me wonder whether or not I'm dealing with a FAKE. >>
Send it to PCGS for validation. Easy Peasy!
The name is LEE!