Is there really any credibility to a sight unseen market for coins?
bidask
Posts: 14,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
I guess at some lowball price there is.
But generally not in my view.
My view is sight seen is really the only way to go and it doesn't matter if a coin is slabbed by pcgs, ngc, starred, plussed, or cac.
Unless you hire someone who has a great eye for coins and you trust to buy/bid on coins for you........
I trust that approach alot more than sight unseen trades.
Your thoughts?
But generally not in my view.
My view is sight seen is really the only way to go and it doesn't matter if a coin is slabbed by pcgs, ngc, starred, plussed, or cac.
Unless you hire someone who has a great eye for coins and you trust to buy/bid on coins for you........
I trust that approach alot more than sight unseen trades.
Your thoughts?
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I give away money. I collect money.
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Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
buyers and quantity often trumps quality. In any case these sight-unseen markets work. There aren't too many left that do.
As for some of the comments, don't a few of the bigger name dealers, like the one whose market report gets linked all the time, regularly blog their bid for CAC coins of certain types? Don't some of the pickiest collectors do business with them? Does that big name dealer ever turn down stickered coins offered to them (offered in response to their advertised bid, of course they turn down some others for market reasons or if the price isn't right), saying that they don't meet their standards? Or are the published bids mostly for coins that aren't readily available, so it is mostly a non-issue because so few coins are offered? Again, an interesting question.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
For collectors - no.
Frankly, as a collector, I wouldn't even buy bullion without some mechanism to review and approve the purchase before I pay or get a refund within a specified time period, or both. I certainly wouldn't buy collector coins that have so many subjective attributes in any "sight unseen" manner.
The Photoseal bid list has been maintained since 1994 - buy price is at least 75% of their sell price.
http://indiancent.com/photoseal.php
http://indiancent.com/priceguide.php
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
you miss and will miss
some true gems behind your stance in doing so
andy of "angel dees" is perfect example of trusted dealers that you can find delight in doing so with
in a world where mystery has faded and even at times is jaded
an open mind still is awarded
to any who hasn't...ask what dealers can be trusted to do so...buy just one off of their description only
and please
"report back to this thread"
i know for a fact if someone does this with andy of angel dees
we'll see why
we as a collector still can buy...sight unseen with great result and happiness
ol skool daze...it was the norm with mail order for all you y/n's who don't know
i'll make a thread and link it here for a list of dealers this can be done to compliment this thread with...stay tuned
linked thread of those you can do this with
I buy from a few trusted dealers who have earned my business over the years - mostly with top-notch customer service and the overall quality of their coins. Still I wouldn't buy from them if I didn't have the option to return a coin or see it first.
Dealers may do this a lot...good for them. The success of the TPGs have made it easier for them and that's a good thing.
I'm not a dealer and I don't buy in bulk.
this is the stuff that makes these new days sad...such proclamations
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>As I recall, there was a thread some time ago the showed major disagreement as to what "sight unseen" actually means. >>
So, for this thread, what does it mean?
When I think of "sight unseen" trades, I think of commodities that are all alike. I also think of no pre-approval viewing period and no return policy. Buy as is.
<< <i>Actually there is. I buy generic gold off APMEX. PCGS 61 or 62 Double eagles. I doubt I am the only one. I know they are really like bullion coins but some are very nice. >>
I think he is asking about non-bullion coins where the value far exceeds the coin's melt value and where a small difference in grade can mean a big difference in value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>LVT, buying from guys like Andy is not really a sight unseen deal just because he doesn't have photos of coins online. I believe the coins are sent on approval or he has a return privilege and the deal is not done until you decide to keep the coin and not return it. That is a sight seen transaction. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Is there a sight unseen CAC bid list? I've heard rumors about it. If it does exist how does it compare to grey sheet? >>
Yes there is a site unseen cac bid list that is posted on their coinplex.com website.
Wei of course is correct that on common type coins they trade mostly by sight unseen bids and in quantity.
On the higher value stuff it becomes very very tough to do as the levels of quality on any particular coin can range so widely.
Therefor, those dealers who post sight unseen bids on say proof type or better date coins, generally place really low bids so that even if somebody sends them the junk of the junk (very unappealing) they can still move it.
On the higher value stuff normally the top sight-unseen bids posted are at bluesheet values (at best).
Back in 1986, wasn't the entire premise on which PCGS was founded based on a completely sight unseen trading market and involving Wall St. mutual funds in coins?
I did this based on the PCGS grade, the CAC sticker and the advice of two professionals. Would I do it again in the same circumstance? Yes.
Hence, your sight-unseen purchase almost certainly carried little risk.
A sight-unseen purchase in the <$5K range is probably much riskier for the typical collector.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>TDN, above $500K virtually any numismatic collectible is a condition-census piece and likely known amongst experts in the series. You also received (solicited?) two additional opinions plus the CAC sticker.
Hence, your sight-unseen purchase almost certainly carried little risk.
A sight-unseen purchase in the <$5K range is probably much riskier for the typical collector. >>
Welllll - let's examine that, shall we? If you have multiple trusted professional opinions [PCGS + CAC + two experts] - how risky is it really?
[the key here is multiple trusted opinions. we all know there are dogs in every holder]
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
There are also some dealers whose ethical standards and coin eyes I've grown to trust (Darrell Kreis, David Kahn, Tom Bush, Dave Weygant to name a few). These guys know what I look for and like in a coin and I would not hesitate to buy sight unseen from them based on their recommendations.
There are also some collectors whose ethical standards and coin eyes I've grown to trust (Tyler Child, Lance Keigwin, Dennis West to name a few) and I would not hesitate to buy sight unseen from them either.
Surely, TDN saw a good picture of the coin, in addition to the holder, sticker, and
I think a lot of you guys are mixing definitions, one being "sight unseen = never seen even a picture" with "sight seen = haven't seen it IN HAND"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I guess I don't understand why any transaction Needs to be "sight-unseen"
Surely, TDN saw a good picture of the coin, in addition to the holder, sticker, and
I think a lot of you guys are mixing definitions, one being "sight unseen = never seen even a picture" with "sight seen = haven't seen it IN HAND" >>
Nope - no picture, no nothing. Here's the info that I had:
PCGS pop 1/0 for the date
CAC stickered
JA - "I liked it but it's been a while"
Laura - "I think I remembered that I liked it"
No return privilege.
Granted, this was a very special case. But due to who the owner was and the fact that I was pursuing the coin, there was no opportunity to get the sight seen or return privilege. Those were the parameters I was working under and I chose to proceed.
to purchase sight-unseen with no return policy.
"Special circumstances" aside, why is the collector (hypothetically) being denied a picture of the coin and/or a return priviledge before making his "final" decision?
the only reason I can think of, is because the ("bargain") price (or large quantity of "widgets") reflects "a good deal" that makes it worth the risk you won't like the coin (s).
In what other circumstances can anyone think of in which anyone would be buying Truly Sight Unseen?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes. And effectively, one could sell a majority of their coins over the phone for bid back in those days. I worked with a number of leading coin dealers in the late 1980's
and they wanted first crack at whatever coins I "made." These dealers were buying sight-unseen based on sheet price and what I wanted for the coin. In some cases they
might ask to see a coin but in nearly every case they bought it. As long as the coin was slabbed, it sold. But in this period the number of coins existing in holders was still
pretty thin. Even major auctions offered mainly raw coins into the early to mid 1990's. The supply of slabbed coins today is 10X to 20X larger than it was in the late 1980's.
It didn't hurt that PCGS and NGC standards were very close together....even if PCGS still liked white blasty coins while NGC tended to reward originally toned ones.
The sight-unseen trading of that day could have been retained through today if grading standards remained 100% identical. Back in those days I would typically have 20-30
type coins to slab every 2-4 weeks. And about 50-75% of the sales were sight -unseen over the phone. The most expensive coin I sold during that period was over the phone
sight-unseen to Greg Holloway (pop 1 finest graded).
There's not a major dealer in the country I would be comfortable buying sight unseen from without some form of a return privilege. Just reviewing the display cases of dealers at a
show like FUN or ANA tells me that. No one buys 100% solid for the grade or high end coins all the time. But given a great price and at least a photo, I could give up the return priv and take a gamble. It's one thing buying sight-unseen in a roaring bull market. But it's a much different story taking that risk in today's market. Fwiw, I had two major dealers buying better date unc seated coins at auction for me in the early to mid-1980's. And I guess that was essentially sight unseen based on the auction description and a cheesy black and white photo. If you can find people you trust 100% then it can work. But I feel it was easier to buy good raw coins out of auction in the mid-1980's than it is to buy good slabbed coins today (more competition today, more dealers, more collectors and investors, everyone knows the starting point for the grade/price, pushing coins to obtain the highest possible slabbed grade and/or modifier, much smaller price spreads between MS/PF grades, much more pricing and population data availability.... in the pre slabbed 1980's it was much more about paying a reasonable price than trying to split hairs on whether it was a 66.6).
<< <i>I will not buy sight unseen, unless from a very select group of individuals (i.e Mark Feld, Russ, Broadstruck and a few others). Cheers, RickO >>