Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins.
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
As you know I'm pro DC but I think these three grading services are desperate for business so they just whistle past the graveyard on this subject.
I love the fact I don't have to slab the DC's coins and can enjoy them as............. in the wild
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
The other night at my coin club we had the vice-president of ANACS come give a talk. He mentioned that they have as many submissions as they can handle right now. Whenever they have a little extra slck in the system (infrequently), they run a grading special in Coin World. Their current focus is continuing to offer strict grading (and they are strict - my recent submissions of the same coins to the three major grading services clearly show that). Their goal is to see ANACS-holdered coins sell for prices that are at least on par with any other top grading service (they already do in many cases, in my opinion).
I've known James Taylor and JP Martin for some time, and back when they were ICG, I did the "Signature Series" state quarters (NY and RI). And then later on they switched and ICG basically became ANACS and vice-versa. I've done a few small favors for them in the past, and they are returning the favor by certifying my issues. Because I carefully document everything I make, and am available for consultation on authenticity issues, they will certify anything in my "on-line catalog".
It's one thing to make fun of each other (like the example, "no one hits my baby brother but me") but to bring into or discussion dozens of other seasoned numismatists and impugn their fine reputations is taking the debate a bit too far. The fine members of the ANACS team certainly are not so "hard up" as to need the barely few dozen DC submissions to make their business flourish and to suggest they do so knowing it damages their reputation is beyond a stretch and borders on the incredulous.
IEdited to add: t's unkind. It's mean. It'a unfair, but more importantly, false.
<< <i>Daniel, Any idea for a release date? I ask as I think it'll be a quick sellout and want to be close to a computer when it's offered. >>
Maybe next month, just after the Denver ANA show. >>
DC, how about offering AT the ANA Denver show? I've got an Ike and Buffalo, and would love to add one of these to the collection while I'm at the show!
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
The other night at my coin club we had the vice-president of ANACS come give a talk. He mentioned that they have as many submissions as they can handle right now. Whenever they have a little extra slck in the system (infrequently), they run a grading special in Coin World. Their current focus is continuing to offer strict grading (and they are strict - my recent submissions of the same coins to the three major grading services clearly show that). Their goal is to see ANACS-holdered coins sell for prices that are at least on par with any other top grading service (they already do in many cases, in my opinion).
I've known James Taylor and JP Martin for some time, and back when they were ICG, I did the "Signature Series" state quarters (NY and RI). And then later on they switched and ICG basically became ANACS and vice-versa. I've done a few small favors for them in the past, and they are returning the favor by certifying my issues. Because I carefully document everything I make, and am available for consultation on authenticity issues, they will certify anything in my "on-line catalog".
That is what you can "read into it". >>
There is nothing incorrect in my statement which you quoted.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
The other night at my coin club we had the vice-president of ANACS come give a talk. He mentioned that they have as many submissions as they can handle right now. Whenever they have a little extra slck in the system (infrequently), they run a grading special in Coin World. Their current focus is continuing to offer strict grading (and they are strict - my recent submissions of the same coins to the three major grading services clearly show that). Their goal is to see ANACS-holdered coins sell for prices that are at least on par with any other top grading service (they already do in many cases, in my opinion).
I've known James Taylor and JP Martin for some time, and back when they were ICG, I did the "Signature Series" state quarters (NY and RI). And then later on they switched and ICG basically became ANACS and vice-versa. I've done a few small favors for them in the past, and they are returning the favor by certifying my issues. Because I carefully document everything I make, and am available for consultation on authenticity issues, they will certify anything in my "on-line catalog".
That is what you can "read into it". >>
There is nothing incorrect in my statement which you quoted. >>
Agree, and I didn't say that there was. But "read into it" implies forming an opinon, so I'm showing another point of view.
PS: Note that the "official Grading Service of the ANA" certifies things like this:
Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of private mint products and television shopping shows trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go.
edited out specifics, but note show me a dealer who will pay more then melt for private minted products, of course some stuff is bringing more then original prices but due to rises in metals lately.
After giving this subject some deep consideration I have to conlude that the fantasy is for the buyer to dream that he/she has a valuable one-of-a-kind authentic coin. I understand that. Otherwise, why object to placing a small maker's mark in a non-distracting place? Put any mark on them and the dream is over. Not sure it is healthy on a steady basis though. Ok, cue the dead horse now. The doctor has left the building.
ps. Who knows. Maybe someone else will also buy the dream later and pay big bucks for that dream?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
BTW, since tangents rule, maybe you ought to see how Franklin Mint NCLTs for Trinidad have performed lately (other examples are certainly performing in like manner).
Hint: the '81-'84 proof sets are selling at multiples of issue price as they come up now.
Perhaps the link is that some collectors are tired of [IMO] ugly A Barber (you pick 'em dimes, quarters, or halves) selling for multiple thousands or the umpteenth Morgan AT/NT beauty selling for multiples of other common bits of the same date.
As Justacommeman said, at least for me, these coins [or whatever you would like to refer to them as] of Dan's are but a mere sidelight for me as I wait for rare coins in my area of interest to come up. In all honesty, even though I am privy to some very rare bits these coins of his draw much more attention and I even find myself pulling them out to look at them quite frequently.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck. >>
There were zillions (maybe a little less) made of each of the examples you cited. I think you know that. Some of DC's mintages are 15. Some are a couple hundred. You get the point. Your point is also respectfully noted.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There were zillions (maybe a little less) made of each of the examples you cited. I think you know that. Some of DC's mintages are 15. Some are a couple hundred. You get the point. Your point is also respectfully noted.
MJ >>
Whats to stop him from minting/making more? Us mint products have a set mintage that put into place and is adhered to, once said amount of coins is made and year is up the dies are destroyed.
<< <i>There were zillions (maybe a little less) made of each of the examples you cited. I think you know that. Some of DC's mintages are 15. Some are a couple hundred. You get the point. Your point is also respectfully noted.
MJ >>
Whats to stop him from minting/making more? Us mint products have a set mintage that put into place and is adhered to, once said amount of coins is made and year is up the dies are destroyed. >>
He throws the dies away in a rust bucket after production. Really. I trust Dan more then I trust the Mint. Anyways, it wouldn't make any sense for him to amplify product after the act. He can't keep up on him new projects as it is. It's a one man shop. He loves what he does and personally I hope he finds something else he loves even more in the future. It would be very good for collectors of his product financially. Either way it's win/win for those that collect him. For those that don't I don't see why any of your concerns would matter. I also don't understand why some of his naysayers are so concerned with the if and buts and what ifs. Why do they feel they need to save "the world" on these based on their personal opinions or personal interpretation of the law. It blows my mind but that may be just me.
All the best.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The poll shows 11% of the people think my over-strikes are "counterfeits". 78% think they are "fantasy" coins, not counterfeits. It puts your contentions, about who thinks what, into question. >>
Like I said, I don't care about that poll. Polls in this forum are unreliable because the same person can just sign up for several different user names and just vote several times. Polls in this forum are for fun and can not be used to support any position. You should know this, and I honestly expect a little better than this.
<< <i>Do you have any data or evidence to support your position - polls, court cases, statutes, etc ? >>
Sorry, ask someone else, 'cause you'll get nothing from me. Should I have any kind of evidence or court caces, I surely would never have told you. But when comparing one of your products to a genuine example, put these questions in mind: How similar is your product and the genuine example? If similar, give an estimate percentage. Is your product a copy of a genuine US coin? If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law? Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits.
Collecting DC stuff has been a nice tangent for me too. They always bring plenty of discussion at show and tell time. Some get it and some don't, but none that have spotted the special features have expressed a worry about harming the hobby. Many research the website and maybe grab a hard times token if they can. I now know two J6P's that carry one for a pocket piece.
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law? Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits."
No. Not a copy thus doesn't need the word, "copy" stamped on as required by law.
Whatever your position on the topic, you've got to give Mr. Carr credit for identifying an untapped market. Copying other designer's work to produce fantasy US coin issues seems to be working for him.
Whats to stop him from minting/making more? Us mint products have a set mintage that put into place and is adhered to, once said amount of coins is made and year is up the dies are destroyed. >>
He throws the dies away in a rust bucket after production. Really. I trust Dan more then I trust the Mint. Anyways, it wouldn't make any sense for him to amplify product after the act. He can't keep up on him new projects as it is. It's a one man shop. He loves what he does and personally I hope he finds something else he loves even more in the future. It would be very good for collectors of his product financially. Either way it's win/win for those that collect him. For those that don't I don't see why any of your concerns would matter. I also don't understand why some of his naysayers are so concerned with the if and buts and what ifs. Why do they feel they need to save "the world" on these based on their personal opinions or personal interpretation of the law. It blows my mind but that may be just me.
All the best.
MJ >>
MJ that was more of a question about minting more, I didn't know the answer to. If you read my earlier post mostly what I was saying is they are not for me and I hope there is no loss to collectors of these products. A lot of mints sell coin related products and they usually can only be sold for melt after the novelty wears off. If they are a hit good for everybody involved, I just hate the stories where gramps collected this and then dies his kids go to sell then find out how much he invested in it (reciepts and such) to find out how much of a loss hes gonna take alive or dead. Thats because most people buy collectables hoping for appreciation in price, facts are few and far in between and very few did their homework.
<< <i>"Are your product a copy of a genuine US coin?
No. Not a copy. Struck on a genuine coin.
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law? Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits."
No. Not a copy thus doesn't need the word, "copy" stamped on as required by law. >>
<< <i>Whatever your position on the topic, you've got to give Mr. Carr credit for identifying an untapped market. Copying other designer's work to produce fantasy US coin issues seems to be working for him. >>
In fairness he's only own made seven different fantasy pieces to date without counting die variations. He's made dozens of other medals, tokens and bullion coins. He's also is the designer of the actual New York and Rhode Island state quarters for the US Mint. His original design was also adapted for use on the actual Maine state quarter.
Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ >>
I disagree with that. We aren't, only those that purchase his products. >>
It's ok. I disgree basically with all 400 posts of yours on this subject. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
....seriously? Read the laws, dan has. This is legal, if you don't like it don't look. DC I'm seriously looking forward to more of your issues. Just ordered tw today and I can't wait to have them in hand.
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck. >>
I'm still waiting for Lesher Dollars to crash in price
<< <i>"Are your product a copy of a genuine US coin?
No. Not a copy. Struck on a genuine coin.
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law? Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits."
No. Not a copy thus doesn't need the word, "copy" stamped on as required by law. >>
I forgot: don't avoid any questions! >>
Doesn't matter as you don't pay any attention to the answers to any of your other questions. The answers you get now are the result of that.
<< <i>Sorry, ask someone else, 'cause you'll get nothing from me. Should I have any kind of evidence or court caces, I surely would never have told you. But when comparing one of your products to a genuine example, put these questions in mind:
How similar is your product and the genuine example? If similar, give an estimate percentage. Is your product a copy of a genuine US coin? If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law?
Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits. >>
I will probably regret joining this thread but what would you (or anyone else) think of these answers?:
1. There is no genuine example. Thus no comparison can be made. 2. No (See answer 1). 3. N/A (See answer 2).
I think the problem is more complex for Carr's 1964-D dollar since we know they existed at one time. One could make an argument that the Carr 64-D is a copy of coin that once existed. On the other hand, Carr has never seen one (to my knowledge) so his rendition could be termed mere speculation of what the 64-D might have looked like.
<< <i>Whatever your position on the topic, you've got to give Mr. Carr credit for identifying an untapped market. Copying other designer's work to produce fantasy US coin issues seems to be working for him. >>
In fairness he's only own made seven different fantasy pieces to date without counting die variations. He's made dozens of other medals, tokens and bullion coins. He's also is the designer of the actual New York and Rhode Island state quarters for the US Mint. His original design was also adapted for use on the actual Maine state quarter.
Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ >>
I love his original designs, especially the satirical pieces. They are almost as good as Bob Julian's satirical medals from the late 70's, of which I have a complete set in both metals.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
For the logic-impaired, let me take a stab at this.
Since his overstrikes are struck on real coins, there is no issue about whether or not they are real coins. He's not creating a new piece. He's overstriking it. Overstrikes have been around for centuries. There's no mystery here.
If he were stamping out copies of an existing coin from new blanks, the government would have reason to be concerned about counterfeiting, because he would be injecting new money supplies into commerce, and as we know - only the government is authorized to create new money. (Well, they actually subcontract the Fed to do it, but the Fed is authorized.)
The 1933 Double Eagle Langbord case initially centered on whether or not the coins had been issued as money by the government. When the government could not prove that the coins hadn't been legally issued, the judge noted as much before confiscating the coins on the basis of Joan Langbord's alledged knowledge of the coins in her safe deposit box.
Since the government made a big deal out of whether or not those 1933 Double Eagles had ever been issued, it would be a reversal of legal precedent to say that it's not a big deal that Dan's overstruck coins had already been issued as money.
On another legal note - as I understood it the case against Von NotHaus revolved around the use of his coins in commerce (and the fact that "dollar" was on the coins.) There was no resemblance of the Liberty Dollars to any US coins (which was always the main criterion for a "counterfeit" coin until now). His conviction was more a political statement than anything else. Government overreach via the Commerce Clause has been problematic ever since FDR first started abusing the Commerce Clause, and the Von NotHaus case was a perfect example (in its redefinition of "counterfeit" to suit it's immediate purposes). Obamacare is another perfect example (in its presumption that the government has the right to force its citizens to "buy" a specific product).
If Dan is in violation of any counterfeiting laws, it is strictly a matter of opinion at this time, and it simply hasn't been litigated yet. If Dan's work ever precipitates a litigation over counterfeiting, it will also be a political statement that expands the interpretation of what the government wants to control.
The other legal issue seems to revolve around the Hobby Protection Act. To invoke the Hobby Protection Act over Dan's overstrikes brings forth several issues. 1) Is the hobby being damaged somehow? 2) Is there intent to defraud? 3) Is a "copy" stamp required for his overstrikes? These questions have already been hashed and re-hashed in this thread, but I would contend that Daniel hasn't violated any of those criteria.
My question regarding the Hobby Protection Act would involve Chinese counterfeits and the government's failure to enforce the law as it concerns ebay. If there was ever an egregious abuse of the Hobby Protection Act, it would fall on ebay's shoulders to show how the hobby hasn't been damaged through their own complicity. The Chinese have blatantly, deceptively, falsely, and repeatedly engaged in outright counterfeiting of US coinage, both in terms of numismatic items and also metallic content. They've shown "copy" on their ebay listings, when counterfeits without "copy" are being supplied. Ebay has made $MILLIONS on this fraud.
It does appear to me that politics play a vastly more important role in dealing with the counterfeiting issue than do the facts.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck. >>
I'm still waiting for Lesher Dollars to crash in price >>
As I recall, the Lesher Dollars were an original design that circulated as a local currency.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I love his original designs, especially the satirical pieces. They are almost as good as Bob Julian's satirical medals from the late 70's, of which I have a complete set in both metals. >>
<< <i>I love his original designs, especially the satirical pieces. They are almost as good as Bob Julian's satirical medals from the late 70's, of which I have a complete set in both metals. >>
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If these were coming out of China, there would be uniform disapproval.
I don't ever want to hear another complaint about a chinese fake early dollar with the wrong date/eagle/obverse etc. They never existed so they're just fantasy pieces.
<< <i>If these were coming out of China, there would be uniform disapproval.
I don't ever want to hear another complaint about a chinese fake early dollar with the wrong date/eagle/obverse etc. They never existed so they're just fantasy pieces. >>
Are these chinese coins overstruck on real coins of the same type?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
peacockcoins
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
As you know I'm pro DC but I think these three grading services are desperate for business so they just whistle past the graveyard on this subject.
I love the fact I don't have to slab the DC's coins and can enjoy them as............. in the wild
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish.
<< <i>
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
^
Enlightened minds win the day.
peacockcoins
Clad Matte = 13 pcs
Silver Matte = 5 pcs
GrandAm
somehow, not in violation of ebay or ICG policy, yet not "overstruck" reproduction/fantasy/fake
even though labeled COPY according to hobby protection act
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
The other night at my coin club we had the vice-president of ANACS come give a talk. He mentioned that they have as many submissions as they can handle right now. Whenever they have a little extra slck in the system (infrequently), they run a grading special in Coin World. Their current focus is continuing to offer strict grading (and they are strict - my recent submissions of the same coins to the three major grading services clearly show that). Their goal is to see ANACS-holdered coins sell for prices that are at least on par with any other top grading service (they already do in many cases, in my opinion).
I've known James Taylor and JP Martin for some time, and back when they were ICG, I did the "Signature Series" state quarters (NY and RI). And then later on they switched and ICG basically became ANACS and vice-versa. I've done a few small favors for them in the past, and they are returning the favor by certifying my issues. Because I carefully document everything I make, and am available for consultation on authenticity issues, they will certify anything in my "on-line catalog".
That is what you can "read into it".
The fine members of the ANACS team certainly are not so "hard up" as to need the barely few dozen DC submissions to make their business flourish and to suggest they do so knowing it damages their reputation is beyond a stretch and borders on the incredulous.
IEdited to add:
t's unkind. It's mean. It'a unfair, but more importantly, false.
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel, Any idea for a release date?
I ask as I think it'll be a quick sellout and want to be close to a computer when it's offered. >>
Maybe next month, just after the Denver ANA show. >>
DC, how about offering AT the ANA Denver show? I've got an Ike and Buffalo, and would love to add one of these to the collection while I'm at the show!
<< <i>ICG "graded" MS66 1796 dollar reproduction
somehow, not in violation of ebay or ICG policy, yet not "overstruck" reproduction/fantasy/fake
even though labeled COPY according to hobby protection act >>
Just when i thought i'd seen it all ... slabbed genuine fake ...if that don't beat all
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
The other night at my coin club we had the vice-president of ANACS come give a talk. He mentioned that they have as many submissions as they can handle right now. Whenever they have a little extra slck in the system (infrequently), they run a grading special in Coin World. Their current focus is continuing to offer strict grading (and they are strict - my recent submissions of the same coins to the three major grading services clearly show that). Their goal is to see ANACS-holdered coins sell for prices that are at least on par with any other top grading service (they already do in many cases, in my opinion).
I've known James Taylor and JP Martin for some time, and back when they were ICG, I did the "Signature Series" state quarters (NY and RI). And then later on they switched and ICG basically became ANACS and vice-versa. I've done a few small favors for them in the past, and they are returning the favor by certifying my issues. Because I carefully document everything I make, and am available for consultation on authenticity issues, they will certify anything in my "on-line catalog".
That is what you can "read into it". >>
There is nothing incorrect in my statement which you quoted.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Giving this topic a bit more thought and attention: are the naysayers willing to inpune the integrity and reputation of such organizations as SEGS , ICG, and ANACS? Each has a strict policy forbidding the grading and stabbing of counterfeits yet do grade and slab DC's coins. >>
Long ago, in a grading service far, far away, I spoke on behalf of the ANA in matters of authenticity. Had one of these been submitted to ANACS back then, we would have refused to certify it on the grounds that it was a counterfeit.
If ANACS will certify them nowadays, you may read into that whatever you wish. >>
The other night at my coin club we had the vice-president of ANACS come give a talk. He mentioned that they have as many submissions as they can handle right now. Whenever they have a little extra slck in the system (infrequently), they run a grading special in Coin World. Their current focus is continuing to offer strict grading (and they are strict - my recent submissions of the same coins to the three major grading services clearly show that). Their goal is to see ANACS-holdered coins sell for prices that are at least on par with any other top grading service (they already do in many cases, in my opinion).
I've known James Taylor and JP Martin for some time, and back when they were ICG, I did the "Signature Series" state quarters (NY and RI). And then later on they switched and ICG basically became ANACS and vice-versa. I've done a few small favors for them in the past, and they are returning the favor by certifying my issues. Because I carefully document everything I make, and am available for consultation on authenticity issues, they will certify anything in my "on-line catalog".
That is what you can "read into it". >>
There is nothing incorrect in my statement which you quoted. >>
Agree, and I didn't say that there was. But "read into it" implies forming an opinon, so I'm showing another point of view.
PS:
Note that the "official Grading Service of the ANA" certifies things like this:
Another example:
peacockcoins
edited out specifics, but note show me a dealer who will pay more then melt for private minted products, of course some stuff is bringing more then original prices but due to rises in metals lately.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>NGC graded, and Heritage sold this Replica
Another example:
Here is the reverse.
Notice the word "Copy"?
Graded??? I don't see no stinkin' grade man.
ps. Who knows. Maybe someone else will also buy the dream later and pay big bucks for that dream?
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Hint: the '81-'84 proof sets are selling at multiples of issue price as they come up now.
Perhaps the link is that some collectors are tired of [IMO] ugly A Barber (you pick 'em dimes, quarters, or halves) selling for multiple thousands or the umpteenth Morgan AT/NT beauty selling for multiples of other common bits of the same date.
As Justacommeman said, at least for me, these coins [or whatever you would like to refer to them as] of Dan's are but a mere sidelight for me as I wait for rare coins in my area of interest to come up. In all honesty, even though I am privy to some very rare bits these coins of his draw much more attention and I even find myself pulling them out to look at them quite frequently.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck. >>
There were zillions (maybe a little less) made of each of the examples you cited. I think you know that. Some of DC's mintages are 15. Some are a couple hundred. You get the point. Your point is also respectfully noted.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
MJ >>
Whats to stop him from minting/making more? Us mint products have a set mintage that put into place and is adhered to, once said amount of coins is made and year is up the dies are destroyed.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>There were zillions (maybe a little less) made of each of the examples you cited. I think you know that. Some of DC's mintages are 15. Some are a couple hundred. You get the point. Your point is also respectfully noted.
MJ >>
Whats to stop him from minting/making more? Us mint products have a set mintage that put into place and is adhered to, once said amount of coins is made and year is up the dies are destroyed. >>
He throws the dies away in a rust bucket after production. Really. I trust Dan more then I trust the Mint. Anyways, it wouldn't make any sense for him to amplify product after the act. He can't keep up on him new projects as it is. It's a one man shop. He loves what he does and personally I hope he finds something else he loves even more in the future. It would be very good for collectors of his product financially. Either way it's win/win for those that collect him. For those that don't I don't see why any of your concerns would matter. I also don't understand why some of his naysayers are so concerned with the if and buts and what ifs. Why do they feel they need to save "the world" on these based on their personal opinions or personal interpretation of the law. It blows my mind but that may be just me.
All the best.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The poll shows 11% of the people think my over-strikes are "counterfeits". 78% think they are "fantasy" coins, not counterfeits.
It puts your contentions, about who thinks what, into question. >>
Like I said, I don't care about that poll. Polls in this forum are unreliable because the same person can just sign up for several different user names and just vote several times. Polls in this forum are for fun and can not be used to support any position. You should know this, and I honestly expect a little better than this.
<< <i>Do you have any data or evidence to support your position - polls, court cases, statutes, etc ? >>
Sorry, ask someone else, 'cause you'll get nothing from me. Should I have any kind of evidence or court caces, I surely would never have told you. But when comparing one of your products to a genuine example, put these questions in mind:
How similar is your product and the genuine example? If similar, give an estimate percentage.
Is your product a copy of a genuine US coin?
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law?
Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits.
No. Not a copy. Struck on a genuine coin.
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law?
Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits."
No. Not a copy thus doesn't need the word, "copy" stamped on as required by law.
peacockcoins
He throws the dies away in a rust bucket after production. Really. I trust Dan more then I trust the Mint. Anyways, it wouldn't make any sense for him to amplify product after the act. He can't keep up on him new projects as it is. It's a one man shop. He loves what he does and personally I hope he finds something else he loves even more in the future. It would be very good for collectors of his product financially. Either way it's win/win for those that collect him. For those that don't I don't see why any of your concerns would matter. I also don't understand why some of his naysayers are so concerned with the if and buts and what ifs. Why do they feel they need to save "the world" on these based on their personal opinions or personal interpretation of the law. It blows my mind but that may be just me.
All the best.
MJ >>
MJ that was more of a question about minting more, I didn't know the answer to. If you read my earlier post mostly what I was saying is they are not for me and I hope there is no loss to collectors of these products. A lot of mints sell coin related products and they usually can only be sold for melt after the novelty wears off. If they are a hit good for everybody involved, I just hate the stories where gramps collected this and then dies his kids go to sell then find out how much he invested in it (reciepts and such) to find out how much of a loss hes gonna take alive or dead. Thats because most people buy collectables hoping for appreciation in price, facts are few and far in between and very few did their homework.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>"Are your product a copy of a genuine US coin?
No. Not a copy. Struck on a genuine coin.
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law?
Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits."
No. Not a copy thus doesn't need the word, "copy" stamped on as required by law. >>
I forgot: don't avoid any questions!
<< <i>Whatever your position on the topic, you've got to give Mr. Carr credit for identifying an untapped market. Copying other designer's work to produce fantasy US coin issues seems to be working for him. >>
In fairness he's only own made seven different fantasy pieces to date without counting die variations. He's made dozens of other medals, tokens and bullion coins. He's also is the designer of the actual New York and Rhode Island state quarters for the US Mint. His original design was also adapted for use on the actual Maine state quarter.
Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ >>
I disagree with that. We aren't, only those that purchase his products.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ >>
I disagree with that. We aren't, only those that purchase his products. >>
It's ok. I disgree basically with all 400 posts of yours on this subject. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
DC I'm seriously looking forward to more of your issues. Just ordered tw today and I can't wait to have them in hand.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck. >>
I'm still waiting for Lesher Dollars to crash in price
<< <i>
<< <i>"Are your product a copy of a genuine US coin?
No. Not a copy. Struck on a genuine coin.
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law?
Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits."
No. Not a copy thus doesn't need the word, "copy" stamped on as required by law. >>
I forgot: don't avoid any questions! >>
Doesn't matter as you don't pay any attention to the answers to any of your other questions.
The answers you get now are the result of that.
peacockcoins
<< <i>It's ok. I disgree basically with all 400 posts of yours on this subject. MJ >>
No need to exaggerate. You're entitled to your opinion as well.
<< <i>Doesn't matter as you don't pay any attention to the answers to any of your other questions.
The answers you get now are the result of that. >>
I don't think you understand the main point in the questions. Just stay away from those questions 'cause they aren't meant for you.
<< <i>Sorry, ask someone else, 'cause you'll get nothing from me. Should I have any kind of evidence or court caces, I surely would never have told you. But when comparing one of your products to a genuine example, put these questions in mind:
How similar is your product and the genuine example? If similar, give an estimate percentage.
Is your product a copy of a genuine US coin?
If your product a copy of a genuine US coin, does it have the word "copy" stamped on as required by law?
Just answer Yes or No/ give the percentage, you'll see why I say they're counterfeits. >>
I will probably regret joining this thread but what would you (or anyone else) think of these answers?:
1. There is no genuine example. Thus no comparison can be made.
2. No (See answer 1).
3. N/A (See answer 2).
I think the problem is more complex for Carr's 1964-D dollar since we know they existed at one time. One could make an argument that the Carr 64-D is a copy of coin that once existed. On the other hand, Carr has never seen one (to my knowledge) so his rendition could be termed mere speculation of what the 64-D might have looked like.
<< <i>
<< <i>Whatever your position on the topic, you've got to give Mr. Carr credit for identifying an untapped market. Copying other designer's work to produce fantasy US coin issues seems to be working for him. >>
In fairness he's only own made seven different fantasy pieces to date without counting die variations. He's made dozens of other medals, tokens and bullion coins. He's also is the designer of the actual New York and Rhode Island state quarters for the US Mint. His original design was also adapted for use on the actual Maine state quarter.
Yes, he has found a nice niche on the fantasy pieces and the board naysayers his best marketeers. MJ >>
I love his original designs, especially the satirical pieces. They are almost as good as Bob Julian's satirical medals from the late 70's, of which I have a complete set in both metals.
Since his overstrikes are struck on real coins, there is no issue about whether or not they are real coins. He's not creating a new piece. He's overstriking it. Overstrikes have been around for centuries. There's no mystery here.
If he were stamping out copies of an existing coin from new blanks, the government would have reason to be concerned about counterfeiting, because he would be injecting new money supplies into commerce, and as we know - only the government is authorized to create new money. (Well, they actually subcontract the Fed to do it, but the Fed is authorized.)
The 1933 Double Eagle Langbord case initially centered on whether or not the coins had been issued as money by the government. When the government could not prove that the coins hadn't been legally issued, the judge noted as much before confiscating the coins on the basis of Joan Langbord's alledged knowledge of the coins in her safe deposit box.
Since the government made a big deal out of whether or not those 1933 Double Eagles had ever been issued, it would be a reversal of legal precedent to say that it's not a big deal that Dan's overstruck coins had already been issued as money.
On another legal note - as I understood it the case against Von NotHaus revolved around the use of his coins in commerce (and the fact that "dollar" was on the coins.) There was no resemblance of the Liberty Dollars to any US coins (which was always the main criterion for a "counterfeit" coin until now). His conviction was more a political statement than anything else. Government overreach via the Commerce Clause has been problematic ever since FDR first started abusing the Commerce Clause, and the Von NotHaus case was a perfect example (in its redefinition of "counterfeit" to suit it's immediate purposes). Obamacare is another perfect example (in its presumption that the government has the right to force its citizens to "buy" a specific product).
If Dan is in violation of any counterfeiting laws, it is strictly a matter of opinion at this time, and it simply hasn't been litigated yet. If Dan's work ever precipitates a litigation over counterfeiting, it will also be a political statement that expands the interpretation of what the government wants to control.
The other legal issue seems to revolve around the Hobby Protection Act. To invoke the Hobby Protection Act over Dan's overstrikes brings forth several issues. 1) Is the hobby being damaged somehow? 2) Is there intent to defraud? 3) Is a "copy" stamp required for his overstrikes? These questions have already been hashed and re-hashed in this thread, but I would contend that Daniel hasn't violated any of those criteria.
My question regarding the Hobby Protection Act would involve Chinese counterfeits and the government's failure to enforce the law as it concerns ebay. If there was ever an egregious abuse of the Hobby Protection Act, it would fall on ebay's shoulders to show how the hobby hasn't been damaged through their own complicity. The Chinese have blatantly, deceptively, falsely, and repeatedly engaged in outright counterfeiting of US coinage, both in terms of numismatic items and also metallic content. They've shown "copy" on their ebay listings, when counterfeits without "copy" are being supplied. Ebay has made $MILLIONS on this fraud.
It does appear to me that politics play a vastly more important role in dealing with the counterfeiting issue than do the facts.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well all I can say is hopefully the buyers of these don't end up losing the arse's on these like the buyers of franklin mint and QVC trumped up over priced stuff. I'm not gonna saying they are bad, but I wouldn't buy them. I just can't seem to find logic in buying improved/over struck coins that started their life out as a original mint product ( being impaired, cleaned or whatever ) and then modified. I mean really what fun is that then searching for rare coins, when some else just makes them up as they go. >>
Most have increased in value handsomely already. Some dramatically. Past or current performance does not guarantee future results
MJ >>
Didn't Beanie Babies increase in value?
I know that some of my wife's Precious Moments figurines did, for a while. I've been trying to sell them, with no luck. >>
I'm still waiting for Lesher Dollars to crash in price
As I recall, the Lesher Dollars were an original design that circulated as a local currency.
<< <i>I love his original designs, especially the satirical pieces. They are almost as good as Bob Julian's satirical medals from the late 70's, of which I have a complete set in both metals. >>
Julian medals
<< <i>
<< <i>I love his original designs, especially the satirical pieces. They are almost as good as Bob Julian's satirical medals from the late 70's, of which I have a complete set in both metals. >>
Julian medals >>
Thank you.
I don't ever want to hear another complaint about a chinese fake early dollar with the wrong date/eagle/obverse etc. They never existed so they're just fantasy pieces.
<< <i>If these were coming out of China, there would be uniform disapproval.
I don't ever want to hear another complaint about a chinese fake early dollar with the wrong date/eagle/obverse etc. They never existed so they're just fantasy pieces. >>
Are these chinese coins overstruck on real coins of the same type?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Are these chinese coins overstruck on real coins of the same type? >>
They certainly could be. And if they started doing just that, everybody would stop complaining about Chinese counterfeits, wouldn't they?
peacockcoins
<< <i>Yes, those too. If they came from China, people would be complaining. >>
They didn't come from China yet people still complain.
peacockcoins
<< <i>They didn't come from China yet people still complain. >>
I'm sure they do. Just not as many as there would be if they did come from China.