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Call me crazy but this is a very choice vf20 SQ
fastfreddie
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It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
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peacockcoins
EAC 6024
<< <i>Cool coin! Probably a light cleaning, otherwise a 30 if you ask me. >>
PCGS states that they do not certify cleaned coins. If it was lightly cleaned, then they should say VF20 Lightly Cleaned.
Why leave it up for interpretation? They are the professionals, they should fully disclose the grade if you are paying them to do so.
The price seems a little high compared to Heritage but it has a nice level of detail. The current market seems pretty soft for such a scarce date - probably due in part to competition from proofs.
Anyone collect these anyomore?
There's a VF35 out there for less...a little more detail but a little beat up looking - see below.
If I didn't already have an AU40 I'd think seriously about this one. But then there would only be 15,998 to fight over.
#11 in rarity for the series (all grades) and a current estimated survival of all of about 250 pieces.
Other 1869
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<< <i>Cool coin! Probably a light cleaning, otherwise a 30 if you ask me. >>
PCGS states that they do not certify cleaned coins. If it was lightly cleaned, then they should say VF20 Lightly Cleaned.
Why leave it up for interpretation? They are the professionals, they should fully disclose the grade if you are paying them to do so. >>
In is their opinion it is not cleaned. It was just an observation from Billit7 of why it might have been graded lower than the details presented. Many, many of these coins were cleaned, some worse than others. If the cleaning was very light it might be market acceptable and holdered vs. strict technical grading of yesteryear.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Cool coin! Probably a light cleaning, otherwise a 30 if you ask me. >>
PCGS states that they do not certify cleaned coins. If it was lightly cleaned, then they should say VF20 Lightly Cleaned.
Why leave it up for interpretation? They are the professionals, they should fully disclose the grade if you are paying them to do so. >>
In is their opinion it is not cleaned. It was just an observation from Billit7 of why it might have been graded lower than the details presented. Many, many of these coins were cleaned, some worse than others. If the cleaning was very light it might be market acceptable and holdered vs. strict technical grading of yesteryear. >>
I guess I can understand that. But then..... Why not say on the slab "VF-20 Market Acceptable Cleaning."
Otherwise we have to guess at what PCGS really thinks. Why pay $30 and still have to guess what they mean?
Lots of coins are Net graded at TPG's. They don't get every coin correct everytime, but the majority are graded correctly. Best thing is to learn how to grade as an average of the whole and then use it yourself in determining what a coin grades in your opinion then pass or play.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>But then..... Why not say on the slab "VF-20 Market Acceptable Cleaning."
Otherwise we have to guess at what PCGS really thinks. Why pay $30 and still have to guess what they mean? >>
PCGS does do genuine grading now but does not give a numeric grade. It states the reason (mostly) and the grade level for a problem coin; like VF details, cleaning.
See this thread...Details grading
<< <i>Lots of coins are Net graded at TPG's. They don't get every coin correct everytime, but the majority are graded correctly. Best thing is to learn how to grade as an average of the whole and then use it yourself in determining what a coin grades in your opinion then pass or play. >>
Why don't they disclose the net grade? Why is it a secret?
<< <i>
<< <i>Lots of coins are Net graded at TPG's. They don't get every coin correct everytime, but the majority are graded correctly. Best thing is to learn how to grade as an average of the whole and then use it yourself in determining what a coin grades in your opinion then pass or play. >>
Why don't they disclose the net grade? Why is it a secret? >>
They feel the grade level is enough - after all it is a problem coin in their OP and their grading service business model.
My new 1864 is similar, AU details, but came back as a 45 for the same reason.
<< <i>My new 1864 is similar, AU details, but came back as a 45 for the same reason. >>
I look forward to viewing it!
<< <i>Looks VF30 all the way from the photos. Therefore, something is wrong with the coin that is not visible in the photos. I'd almost bet my bottom dollar it's lightly wiped or hairlined, but PCGS gave it a grade anyway due to the rarity of the date. >>
I agree! It's like my AU details that was holdered 45 ATS and then on a crossover knocked to 40 due to the same 'here and there' wispy hairlines. Market acceptance plain and simple.
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour?
<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Photograde tells me that the obverse is about a 25 and the reverse is about a 35
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<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Photograde tells me that the obverse is about a 25 and the reverse is about a 35
Photograde doesn't show specific dates if I'm correct.
<< <i>Looks VF30 all the way from the photos. Therefore, something is wrong with the coin that is not visible in the photos. I'd almost bet my bottom dollar it's lightly wiped or hairlined, but PCGS gave it a grade anyway due to the rarity of the date. >>
I agree that the coin is more like a VF30. I disagree that there's something wrong with the coin and therefore it was net graded vf20. PCGS regularly undergrades and overgrades coins just like all
TPG services.
Doug
Nice coin and a very tuff date.
<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Every grade is a guess. If we could all grade as accurately as the PCGS graders we'd all be, well, PCGS graders.
With that said, many of those who responded to this thread are experts in this series and I would take their word for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Every grade is a guess. If we could all grade as accurately as the PCGS graders we'd all be, well, PCGS graders.
With that said, many of those who responded to this thread are experts in this series and I would take their word for it. >>
Thank you, this is very much correct. Many here are experts in this series and know what they are doing. They can tell if your 67 quarter is a proof or not, they can tell if you if your 69 is really a 69-s, even if its mint mark has been removed.
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Every grade is a guess. If we could all grade as accurately as the PCGS graders we'd all be, well, PCGS graders.
With that said, many of those who responded to this thread are experts in this series and I would take their word for it. >>
Thank you, this is very much correct. Many here are experts in this series and know what they are doing. They can tell if your 67 quarter is a proof or not, they can tell if you if your 69 is really a 69-s, even if its mint mark has been removed. >>
True, but identifying business and proof strikes in the Seated Quarter series is the basics. We can easily do a diagnostic test and determine a 69-P and 69-S.
That type of information is easily memorized.
To grade this series, knowledge of the strike characteristics of each die and die state is required so one can understand what the coin should look like in an Uncirculated state. And as such, just knowing the die varieties is not sufficient, as the deterioration of each die will cause certain changes in the striking characteristics of each piece. This type of information is much more difficult to memorize. I know that I could not grade such a piece without doing a significant amount of research.
If you want to grade Seated Quarters based on what a "typical" fully struck Seated Quarter looks like, then you are doing a disservice to the numismatic community. These coins last a long time, so if it takes a week to conduct research and determine what the grade should be, then that is a worthwhile project. I do not see the benefits of slapping a grade on the coin in 10 seconds.
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<< <i>Lots of coins are Net graded at TPG's. They don't get every coin correct everytime, but the majority are graded correctly. Best thing is to learn how to grade as an average of the whole and then use it yourself in determining what a coin grades in your opinion then pass or play. >>
Why don't they disclose the net grade? Why is it a secret? >>
There are lot's of overly dipped coins in PCGS and NGC holders which I consider cleaned. Is there anything more ugly than a AG/G 1916-D dime that has been dipped?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Lots of coins are Net graded at TPG's. They don't get every coin correct everytime, but the majority are graded correctly. Best thing is to learn how to grade as an average of the whole and then use it yourself in determining what a coin grades in your opinion then pass or play. >>
Why don't they disclose the net grade? Why is it a secret? >>
There are lot's of overly dipped coins in PCGS and NGC holders which I consider cleaned. Is there anything more ugly than a AG/G 1916-D dime that has been dipped? >>
No, there really is nothing more ugly.
I think the Mercury dime is one of the ugliest coins in AG/G. There are some coins that look decent in AG/G, Mercuries not one of them!
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Even the TPG's don't have the knowledge to grade this coin with that information. For the most part they grade them as if they struck like the typically seen LSQ. The exceptions
being dates that might come typically always poorly struck such as early New Orleans mints (ie 42-0 sd) and some P-mints (ie 1866). 1869 is typically a well struck coin for both P
and S mint. Not many are fully struck in the later 1860's to early 1870's, but decently struck. Other than a few real experts in this series, most people haven't seen more than a
couple business strike 1869's in their lifetimes, let alone die varieties and die states. But with only 16,600 minted, there is probably only 1 variety. The bigger problem is avoiding
the more common proofs which number in the hundreds. 250 extant might be on the high side. Certainly pleasant looking VF-XF coins are in very short supply. Price of $1300 is
not outlandish when one considers than an equivalently rare O or S mint (66-s, 67-s) would cost a lot more. But those coins don't have the issue of hundreds of proofs being available.
Coin could easily have a few hits, dings, rim bang, or even wipes to account for the grade. But I also think they were very conservative on the grade. It's not out of the question
to see a decent VF25-30 type coin come back anywhere from VF20 to VF35. If resubmitted I'd sort of expect at least a 25 on it. Nice coin.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm curious.....
How many of you who offered a grade in this thread are experts at the strike characteristics of the 1869-P? Do you know what all of the Mint State pieces look like? Do you know what the strike looks like for each die state?
If not, how can one offer a grade and have it be a worthwhile endeavour? >>
Every grade is a guess. If we could all grade as accurately as the PCGS graders we'd all be, well, PCGS graders.
With that said, many of those who responded to this thread are experts in this series and I would take their word for it. >>
Thank you, this is very much correct. Many here are experts in this series and know what they are doing. They can tell if your 67 quarter is a proof or not, they can tell if you if your 69 is really a 69-s, even if its mint mark has been removed. >>
True, but identifying business and proof strikes in the Seated Quarter series is the basics. We can easily do a diagnostic test and determine a 69-P and 69-S.
That type of information is easily memorized.
To grade this series, knowledge of the strike characteristics of each die and die state is required so one can understand what the coin should look like in an Uncirculated state. And as such, just knowing the die varieties is not sufficient, as the deterioration of each die will cause certain changes in the striking characteristics of each piece. This type of information is much more difficult to memorize. I know that I could not grade such a piece without doing a significant amount of research.
If you want to grade Seated Quarters based on what a "typical" fully struck Seated Quarter looks like, then you are doing a disservice to the numismatic community. These coins last a long time, so if it takes a week to conduct research and determine what the grade should be, then that is a worthwhile project. I do not see the benefits of slapping a grade on the coin in 10 seconds. >>
Are you trying to imply that the TPG companies do that kind of research for every coin they grade??? If so you've got to be kidding me. They grade the coin just like you are talking about, in 10 seconds (maybe a little longer.) People who have specialized in the series for a long time CAN slap a grade on the coin in 10 seconds.
BTW I am not nearly as learned as a few, but I've collected the series for a little while, and I can tell you that not just a few people can tell you...just off the top of their head that the 1869 has specific strike characteristics. The top right region (about 2 o'clock) is struck shallow, as is the reverse (at about 8 o'clock.) It's the reason so many lower grade coins are missing details in those areas.
I firmly stand by my grade assessment of VF30.
Listen to Roadrunner, he's a smart fellow.
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<< <i>Cool coin! Probably a light cleaning, otherwise a 30 if you ask me. >>
PCGS states that they do not certify cleaned coins. If it was lightly cleaned, then they should say VF20 Lightly Cleaned.
Why leave it up for interpretation? They are the professionals, they should fully disclose the grade if you are paying them to do so. >>
I agree with you 100%.
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<< <i>Cool coin! Probably a light cleaning, otherwise a 30 if you ask me. >>
PCGS states that they do not certify cleaned coins. If it was lightly cleaned, then they should say VF20 Lightly Cleaned.
Why leave it up for interpretation? They are the professionals, they should fully disclose the grade if you are paying them to do so. >>
Putting this coin in a gennie holder, as you suggest (showing the VF20, Cleaning) would be a disservice to the coin and the collecting community, since it appears to be fully within market standards.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
EAC 6024