Tungsten-filled kilo gold bar surfaces in England

CaptHenway

Here is a link:

linky

but as I have had trouble linking to that forum in the past, if that does not work, then go to

http://forums.silverstackers.com/

then click on the Gold forum
then click on the thread that begins "Tungsten filled..."

Brief summary: A bullion trader in England bought in a METALOR brand gold kilo with the original certificate of authenticity. It was surface tested with an electronic tester and determined to be 99.98% pure.

Later it was weighed, and found to be two grams light. Because that much of a variance is suspicious, it was cut in half. Inside were five tungsten rods that ran the length of the bar. Bottom line, it was a genuine bar with certificate that was drilled and filled.

TD

MsMorrisine

I'm getting messages that the whole site is down.

EDIT: and now the link works.


So, it is successful now.

CaptHenway

Huh. I was just on there half an hour ago, but it is the middle of the night over there, and maybe they do some sort of maintenance at night. Try again later.

derryb

been in the news since 2009

ricko

This should be making a lot of gold bar holders nervous.... site/link works fine now. Thanks for posting this... Cheers, RickO

derryb

I suspect the fake bars were intended to end up in warehouse vaults never to see the light of day (think gold ETFs or central banks).

Baley

egads!

Time for all of us to check all of our kilo, 100 oz, and other extremely large gold bars in our possesions, especially those recently acquired

derryb

ZeroHedge report with Pics

Weiss

That type of drilling and filling is possible on just about any gold item. And at $1500+ an ounce, it's definitely worth it even on something as small as a one-ounce bar or gold eagle. A reasonably skilled jeweler (or thief) could drill out several hundred dollars worth of gold on a one-ounce coin. You're talking a month's pay in India or Bangladesh.

The potential for fakes is in part why I divested from all but a few pieces that I wouldn't care about being ripped in half with a band saw. And why I'm such a proponent of 90% silver coins.

There is strong value in having gold and silver that are easy to recognize. That recognition is one of the main ways to deter counterfeiters.

So. Quarter eagles and nothing larger, huh? Anything larger is just too easy to drill and fill.

Maybe Austria has it right? Their 4-ducat coin is about a half-ounce and huge--about as big as a US silver dollar. But they're really, really thin.

Baley

You consider it "easy" to drill out a gold coin or bar, fill the hole with tungsten ,, and then patch the hole so well as to be difficult to detect with a hand magnifying glass? (perfectly-fitting rods, or molten metal? who has access to tungsten rods, anyway... and access to ultra-high temperature forges? what are the relative melting points? is what are the relative hardnesses of the materials?

I'm impressed with your metalworking skill, and/or those who can do this

Kip

I cut 2 of mine open and all is okay..no sign of tungsten

Weiss

<< <i>You consider it "easy" to drill out a gold coin or bar, fill the hole with tungsten ,, and then patch the hole so well as to be difficult to detect with a hand magnifying glass? (perfectly-fitting rods, or molten metal? who has access to tungsten rods, anyway... and access to ultra-high temperature forges? what are the relative melting points? is what are the relative hardnesses of the materials?

I'm impressed with your metalworking skill, and/or those who can do this >>



I'm sorry. Did I say me? I thought I said India and Bangladesh.

A) India is the world's largest buyer of gold, or second largest depending on who you ask.
India has hundreds of thousands of skilled goldsmiths.
C) India has a GDP per capita of $3500. 30% of a gold eagle ($500) would represent a month or two of average wages in India.

As for where India, one of the world's largest industrial economies, would get the knowledge to create and forge tungsten, well, you got me there. I have no idea.

http://india.tradekey.com/tungsten.htm

CaptHenway

I don't think anybody knows where this was done.

Baley

Whereever this is thought to be occurring (besides rare, isolated instances and vague conspiracy theories)
My question is: what entity with the skill, machinery, tungsten and other materials, and access to gold market flow, both buying and selling, would risk all that capital and business, for the sake of committing fraud? and expect to get away with it on any meaningful scale?

I wish I dealt with enough gold for this to be a concern, that would be a nice problem to have. I'd probably retain an expert to inspect all my gold bricks for me.

derryb

I tend to think it was done in the US, the fake bars were switched with good bars and it involved corrupt banksters who had access to the good bars and thought the fake bars would remain in some ETF or foreign central bank vault indefinitely. I also believe it was done on a massive scale with most of the fake bars still sitting in a vault unknown to be fakes to the owners.

jmski52

We can only hope that someday they will be drilling out a bar and hit a vein of tungsten.

AUandAG

The melting point of tungsten is 6192F and the melting point of gold is 1947F. I am no rocket scientist
but I do see a big problem pouring a melt of tungsten into a bar of gold. I think you may just have a
big puddle.

So, it has to be in rod or bar form first and then inserted into the gold bar (drill and substitute) or somehow
plating a tungsten bar with enough of a layer of gold to make the fake.

According to Wikipedia, China was making fake gold bars with tungsten back as far as 1980. China is
the worlds leading producer of tungsten. At $21,000 per ton it is a cheap substitute for sure.

Interesting.

bob

DrBuster

<< <i>

Maybe Austria has it right? Their 4-ducat coin is about a half-ounce and huge--about as big as a US silver dollar. But they're really, really thin.

>>



The 1 ducat I got Friday is about the size of a quarter ozer but is right at a tenth, very thin.

derryb

or, you could pour the gold around the solid tungsten

jmski52

Precision machining.

PerryHall

<< <i>or, you could pour the gold around the solid tungsten >>



Wouldn't it be easier to just make the bar out of tungsten and then gold plate it?

TheBigB

I think powdered tungsten would be nice.
Tungsten Heavy Powder

tincup

<< <i>

<< <i>or, you could pour the gold around the solid tungsten >>



Wouldn't it be easier to just make the bar out of tungsten and then gold plate it? >>




The problem with this would be the serial numbers, name on the bar, emblem, etc. Tungsten is extremely hard; would not be able to 'stamp' anything into a bar made of it. So for this to take place, the serial numbers, etc., would have to be machined somehow into it; would not look authentic.

The best method would appear to be what took place in the OP link.... precision machine out the interior of a legit gold bar and fill with the right diameter of tungsten rod.

1jester

<< <i>been in the news since 2009 >>



Oh please, there you go again. Damn conspiracy lunatic.

derryb

oh yee of too much faith.

1jester

It takes a hell of a lot of faith to live in Baileyville, sir! I don't have that much...LOL

Weiss

<< <i>Precision machining. >>


Slice the face off of a coin or bar, mill out the gold, replace with tungsten powder, reattach the face.

Baley

the air space between the bits of "tungsten powder" would make the bar fail the specific gravity test. The subject bar was "2 grams light" because of imperfect "machining"

Not to mention difficulty it would be to "slice, millout, and repair" a gold bar... probably the omnipotent old bearded guy who wears robes and lives on a cloud could do it and not be detectable

but mortals? still not sure. Was the bar that is the subject of the thread perfect from the outside, before they sliced it open? did it have a "scar"? did it rattle? what made them suspicious of it enough to weigh and investigate it?

and if the 'fake' bars were truly perfect, and no one ever found out... what's the difference??

edited to add: and if this fear is really credible, is that positive or negative for gold prices?

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>Precision machining. >>


Slice the face off of a coin or bar, mill out the gold, replace with tungsten powder, reattach the face. >>



Sounds like it would just be easier to drill out the end with several holes to a precise diameter and then tap in rods already made to that precise diameter, as appears to have been done in this case.

Weiss

I wonder if a C and C machine could make the process easier. Pre-made tungsten blanks 75% the size of an eagle or K-rand. Slice, mill out, snap in, reattach.

Ever seen a magician's coin?

1jester

<< <i>the air space between the bits of "tungsten powder" would make the bar fail the specific gravity test. The subject bar was "2 grams light" because of imperfect "machining"

Not to mention difficulty it would be to "slice, millout, and repair" a gold bar... probably the omnipotent old bearded guy who wears robes and lives on a cloud could do it and not be detectable

but mortals? still not sure. Was the bar that is the subject of the thread perfect from the outside, before they sliced it open? did it have a "scar"? did it rattle? what made them suspicious of it enough to weigh and investigate it?

and if the 'fake' bars were truly perfect, and no one ever found out... what's the difference??

edited to add: and if this fear is really credible, is that positive or negative for gold prices? >>



Once again, I direct you to Murray Rothbard's extensive works. To wit, he points out that counterfeiting hurts everybody that the counterfeit money/bar comes into contact with. Besides, you seem to have a moral issue with theft in the first place, that it isn't even worth mentioning. I do wonder about you, sir.

TheBigB

<< <i>the air space between the bits of "tungsten powder" would make the bar fail the specific gravity test. The subject bar was "2 grams light" because of imperfect "machining" >>



Ideally the tungsten particles would be sintered or fused at high temperature to form a solid object.

From reading the original story, the 2 gram weight discrepancy triggered the dissection of the bar.

Here is a youtube video on detecting fake bars using ultrasound. HOW TO DETECT A FAKE TUNGSTEN GOLD BAR

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>or, you could pour the gold around the solid tungsten >>



Wouldn't it be easier to just make the bar out of tungsten and then gold plate it? >>




The problem with this would be the serial numbers, name on the bar, emblem, etc. Tungsten is extremely hard; would not be able to 'stamp' anything into a bar made of it. So for this to take place, the serial numbers, etc., would have to be machined somehow into it; would not look authentic.

The best method would appear to be what took place in the OP link.... precision machine out the interior of a legit gold bar and fill with the right diameter of tungsten rod. >>



You could take a real bar and use it to create a mold with all the design details of the original bar and then cast your fake bars. That's how some of the better cast counterfeits are produced.

MsMorrisine

well thee gold behing the big boy futures contracts in 100 troy ounces, not 1 kilo.

I'm not sure this was directy intended to go to some ETF or Commodity House.

There are bullion retailers that would take a 50k kilo bar.

MsMorrisine

and tungsten's density is just slightly under gold. I'm not sure how much of that accounted for the 2 grams. Certainly now, the well-read crooks will weigh them more carefully.

CaptHenway

<< <i>well thee gold behing the big boy futures contracts in 100 troy ounces, not 1 kilo.

I'm not sure this was directy intended to go to some ETF or Commodity House.

There are bullion retailers that would take a 50k kilo bar. >>



With melt on a kilo in the $53,000+ range, stealing 30% of the gold (as one estimate had it) and successfully selling the bar would reap a gross profit of about $16,000.

No need for any conspiracy theories.

derryb

Here's a tungsten filled bar report by the NY Times back in 1983