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Great Writeup on the 1792 Silver Center Cent

CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
Heritage is auctioning a monster unc silver center cent at Central States:

link here

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    keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,456 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That will be worthy of bookmarking for fun reference. Can't wait for the pics!
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
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    LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭
    I believe this is the coin, a J-1 ms-61

    image


    Image from CoinFacts.
    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MS-61?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,456 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, who wants to buy it for me? image
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,292 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a beauty and a great writeup - thanks for posting it. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    That was an interesting read, thanks for that.
    Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
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    << <i>So, who wants to buy it for me? image >>



    Let my pull out my extra million in my back pocket.image
    Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
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    renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    STONESTONE Posts: 15,275


    << <i>That's a WOMAN? >>


    It's an 18th century woman image
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    BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,293 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can someone get me this cent, and that gold IHC from ebay, please?

    I'll be your friend image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

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    shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll kick in $20...who's with me? We can buy it for the forum museum.

    Sheesh, I might even go $100.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
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    shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When was that graded? I can believe it's really an AU in disguise, but I find it hard to believe it's only a 61.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    way nice coin and nice write up
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    LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭

    Interesting difference between the older image above
    and Heritage's new image.
    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
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    raysrays Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS price guide= $1.4M.
    Interesting to see what it actually goes for.
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    renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My guess is that whatever someone's willing to pay for it, the Cardinal Foundation will pay just a little bit more.

    Still, this IS THE ultimate cent for any cent collector. Beats an S-1 by a longshot. Good luck to all bidders.
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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,943 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MS-61?


    Reminds me of the reaction John Belushi got when he asked "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"


    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PCGS price guide= $1.4M.
    Interesting to see what it actually goes for. >>



    A low-grade one just sold for 300K. I say $1M on the nose, all in. That requires a bid of precisely $869,565.22 image
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    cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My guess is that whatever someone's willing to pay for it, the Cardinal Foundation will pay just a little bit more.

    Still, this IS THE ultimate cent for any cent collector. Beats an S-1 by a longshot. Good luck to all bidders. >>



    Actually, I much prefer this one! image

    image
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    renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So the MS-67 is your coin? I wasn't aware that there was already one in your collection.
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    Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭


    << <i>When was that graded? I can believe it's really an AU in disguise, but I find it hard to believe it's only a 61. >>



    Looking at the census in the Norweb III catalog (it's not the Norweb coin, lest anyone gets confused), it was called "EF-AU" there. I like how Heritage used Breen's description, but not his grade.
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That cent is amazing Cardinal... Cheers, RickO
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>MS-61?


    Reminds me of the reaction John Belushi got when he asked "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?" >>



    For not dis-similar reasons........
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>When was that graded? I can believe it's really an AU in disguise, but I find it hard to believe it's only a 61. >>



    Looking at the census in the Norweb III catalog (it's not the Norweb coin, lest anyone gets confused), it was called "EF-AU" there. I like how Heritage used Breen's description, but not his grade. >>



    Perhaps it was mistaken for an 1804 Dollar?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>When was that graded? I can believe it's really an AU in disguise, but I find it hard to believe it's only a 61. >>



    Looking at the census in the Norweb III catalog (it's not the Norweb coin, lest anyone gets confused), it was called "EF-AU" there. I like how Heritage used Breen's description, but not his grade. >>



    The "EF-AU" grade would have been an EAC-style grade, which is a very different system than that used by PCGS and NGC. Whereas PCGS and NGC assign a grade based on wear and accept a certain level of handling marks at each grade level, the EAC starts with a grade based on the amount of wear and then takes off points for handling marks or other issues. For example, the Eliasberg Chain Cent that sold at the FUN show for $1,380,000 was graded by PCGS as MS65BN and approved by CAC. The EAC grade assigned to that coin is net AU50.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>PCGS price guide= $1.4M.
    Interesting to see what it actually goes for. >>



    A low-grade one just sold for 300K. I say $1M on the nose, all in. That requires a bid of precisely $869,565.22 image >>



    Why not just run amok and INFLATE the bid to $870,000???

    image
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    BaronVonBaughBaronVonBaugh Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭✭
    it's up to $220,000.
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    Didn't smoeone say smoething about MS61 coins a while back?
    Anyway, I think I see an Indian Cent and a gold dollar under all that. image

    Eric
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    "Most MS60 and MS61 coins are pretty beat up. Putting a + on those grades would not be appropriate (like lipstick on a pig)."

    I think this coin, this MS61, should get a plus, no?

    Eric
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    magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    " We believe MS60 and MS61 by definition do not have + coins." -DW

    I guess I disagree with this statement. There has been some MS60 and 61 bashing lately. Time was when a 60 did not HAVE to be hideous. Is this undergraded and by how many points would you guess..?

    Eric
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    BaronVonBaughBaronVonBaugh Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭✭
    Bid is now $900,000.00, over a million with BP.
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    illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw this one in hand at lot viewing yesterday in Beverly Hills. Was pretty neat to have a penny in my hand worth over 100,000,000 times face value image

    The silver center also had a little bit of steel blue toning on it which I thought was cool.
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    swhuckswhuck Posts: 546 ✭✭✭
    The bid rose to $950K as I was looking at the lot.
    Sincerely,

    Stewart Huckaby
    mailto:stewarth@HA.com
    ------------------------------------------
    Heritage Auctions
    Heritage Auctions

    2801 W. Airport Freeway

    Dallas, Texas 75261

    Phone: 1-800-US-COINS, x1355
    Heritage Auctions
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>My guess is that whatever someone's willing to pay for it, the Cardinal Foundation will pay just a little bit more.

    Still, this IS THE ultimate cent for any cent collector. Beats an S-1 by a longshot. Good luck to all bidders. >>



    Actually, I much prefer this one! image

    image >>



    imageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimageimage

    Wow Cardinal you never ceases to amaze... Thanks for posting on this forum with the rest of us peons! imageimageimage
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 16,862 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimage

    image
    image



    Per Heritage:

    Famous 1792 Silver Center Cent, Judd-1, MS61 Brown
    The First Coin Struck Inside the Philadelphia Mint
    1792 P1C One Cent, Judd-1, Pollock-1, High R.6, MS61 Brown PCGS. Liberty faces right with hair flowing behind. The obverse periphery reads LIBERTY PARENT OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY, with 1792 just below the bust. The reverse has a wreath tied with a ribbon at the bottom; ONE CENT is within. Around the rim is UNITED STATES OF AMERICA with the fraction 1/100 below. Struck in copper with a silver plug in the center. Medallic alignment.
    Just 12 days after Congress passed the Mint Act of April 2, 1792, President George Washington offered the position of Mint Director to David Rittenhouse, the well-known 18th century Philadelphia scientist and inventor. After his death, a contemporary, Benjamin Rush, eulogized Rittenhouse as one of the luminaries of the 18th century. His age (Rittenhouse was 60 years old in 1792) and his poor health were the reasons for the hesitation in acceptance. Although Rittenhouse waited until July 9 to officially accept, announcements were published within a week of his April 14 appointment, such as the notice in the April 21, 1792, issue of the Gazette of the United States: "David Rittenhouse, Esq. is appointed Director of the MINT of the United States." Using the Mint Act as a blueprint, Rittenhouse quickly began making arrangements for the new institution. In his biography David Rittenhouse, Brooke Hindle explains:


    "Long before he committed himself, Rittenhouse worked over the design and plans of the Mint and even took steps to obtain the needed men, materials, and buildings. In this period of indecision, he seems to have been testing himself to see whether his health would permit him to undertake the post. In addition, he did not want to delay the work which the administration was anxious to press forward."


    Two of the Mint buildings were completed in September, the third early the next year. Although the first official coins struck within the Mint building and intended for circulation were the Chain cents of late February and early March 1793, earlier pattern coins were minted in December 1792.
    Section 9 of the Mint Act specified that cents were to contain 11 pennyweights of pure copper, equal to 264 grains (17.1069 grams). The theoretical planchet would be nearly identical in size to a double eagle of half a century later. Rittenhouse and others at the Mint quickly realized that the planchet size was impossibly high, and solutions were explored. The pattern cents of 1792 illustrated possible alternatives to Washington and members of Congress. Henry Voigt, who was recently appointed the Mint's Chief Coiner, suggested a combination of silver and copper, inserting a small silver plug in a copper planchet. In a letter dated December 18, 1792, Jefferson wrote to Washington regarding the pattern or trial cents:


    "Th. Jefferson has the honor to send the President two cents made on Voigt's plan by putting a silver plug worth 3/4 of a cent into a copper worth 1/4 cent. Mr. Rittenhouse is about to make a few by mixing the same plug by fusion with the same quantity of copper. He will then make of copper alone of the same size, and lastly he will make the real cent as ordered by Congress, four times as big."


    The Silver Center cents (Judd-1) and the Fusible Alloy cents (Judd-2) permitted the one cent coin to be a manageable size, while the Birch cents (Judd-3 through 5) illustrated the larger cent that Congress stipulated. Jefferson identified Voigt as the originator of the Silver Center cent; an entry Voigt made in his journal indicates that the coins were struck on December 17. Notice of the Voigt plan soon appeared in various newspapers, such as the Baltimore Evening Post of December 28:


    "It is proposed by some persons connected with the mint of the United States, in order to make the real value of the copper coinage equal to the nominal, and at the same time, reduce the piece to a convenient size to introduce a silver stud of a certain size in the coin, thro' a hole in its centre, and after this operation to coin it so that the silver should bear part of the impression. The idea is certainly ingenious, and the improvement it is said, is not difficult of execution, nor does in increase the labour in any material degree.
    "One objection to this mode of coining, strikes at first view; whether it might not be a temptation to counterfeit, by coining with studs of base white metal. Perhaps however, the silver saved in this way may not equal the expense of coining, and then the objection falls to the ground."


    Henry Voigt is usually identified as the author of the Silver Center cents. Hindle writes that 1792 saw:


    "The production of several pattern pieces: half-dimes were struck in silver and mentioned by Washington in his annual address; dimes; half-eagles [ sic] in base metals; and at least two varieties of cents. The history of these coins is not clear, but Voight engraved the dies for some of them and was entirely responsible for the most unusual one--the Silver Center cent. This was a copper coin with a small plug of silver in its center which brought its value up to the nominal value of the cent without increasing its size to unmanageable proportions."


    The Voigt connection dates to a 1795 report of Elias Boudinot, who conducted an investigation of Mint operations. His report was communicated to the House of Representatives on February 9, 1795, just over two years after the 1792 pattern cents were produced. The text of his report appears in American State Papers. Boudinot wrote that "it was also a considerable time before an engraver could be engaged, during which, the chief coiner was obliged to make the dies for himself ... ." However, in a biography of Voigt, Karl Moulton opines that the Boudinot comment has been incorrectly interpreted, other evidence suggesting that Voigt was unskilled in engraving, relying on others to prepare coinage dies. Moulton writes:


    "From all original accounts it is very difficult to believe that Voigt engraved any dies, although he may have helped turn and forge them beforehand. It is probable he had the engraving work commissioned to outside sources. Keep in mind that at the time of his report politician Boudinot knew very little about the inside workings of the United States Mint."


    Following inspection of the 1792 pattern cents, Congress amended the Mint Act on January 14, 1793, reducing the weight of the cent to 208 grains, the half cent to 104 grains. The result was a theoretical planchet size for the large cent that approximates a late 19th or early 20th century eagle.

    Properties of the Silver Center Cents
    Voigt's plan toward a smaller one cent coin was ingenious, combining a silver plug valued at 3/4 cent with a copper planchet valued at 1/4 cent. The 1792 Mint Act specified that the one cent coin should have a weight of 264 grains of pure copper. A quarter cent of copper would weigh 66 grains.
    The same Act specified that a silver dollar was to contain 416 grains of standard silver (89.24% silver, 10.76% copper), or 371.25 grains of pure silver, yielding 3.71 grains of pure silver per one cent. It is likely that the plug consisted of pure silver, having a weight of 2.78 grains.
    The combination of copper and silver gives a theoretical weight of 68.78 grains. The actual recorded weights of four high-grade pieces are 67.5 grains, 69.9 grains, 70.5 grains, and 72.8 grains, for an average of 70.2 grains.

    The Copper Planchet
    We have known diameters for six different Silver Center cents: 22.4 mm, 22.4 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.6 mm, and 22.9 mm, with an average of 22.55 mm. We will use 22.4 mm as the theoretical diameter. By using the familiar formula using pi, the surface area of the planchet is 394.08 square millimeters.
    Pure copper has a density of 8.94 gm/cc, equal to 0.138 grains per cubic millimeter. The theoretical weight of 66 grains, divided by the density, results in a theoretical volume of 478.26 cubic millimeters. Volume divided by surface area gives a theoretical thickness of 1.21 mm.
    The copper planchet was approximately 22.4 mm diameter and 1.2 mm thick.

    The Silver Plug
    The volume, dimensions, and composition of the silver plug present a few problems. We have already determined that a plug of pure silver valued at 3/4 cent will weight 2.78 grains. Silver has a density of 10.49 gm/cc, equal to 0.1619 grains per cubic millimeter. Weight divided by density gives a theoretical volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters for the silver plug.
    All known Silver Center cents retain a plug with a larger diameter on the obverse than on the reverse. That observation suggests a conical plug, rather than a cylindrical plug. We also know that the thickness of the copper planchet is 1.2 mm. Once the coin was struck, the plug will have the same thickness. The volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters divided by the 1.2-mm thickness yields a surface area of 14.31 square millimeters. Using the formula for the area of a circle, the theoretical radius is 2.13 mm, giving a diameter of 4.26 mm.
    The theoretical diameter of the plug is much greater than found on known specimens. The conclusion is that the Silver Center cents were made with a smaller amount of silver for illustrative purposes only. Congressional approval was uncertain, so there was no reason to use the full amount of silver valued at 3/4 cent when a lesser amount would suffice. It is unlikely that anyone in Congress would have checked that closely. There is apparently no standard dimension for the silver plug in these coins, so variance between surviving specimens is likely.

    Production of the Silver Center Cents
    The observed diameter of surviving specimens is about 22.5 mm, and the theoretical thickness is 1.2 mm. The original planchet would have been a slightly smaller diameter and slightly thicker, to allow for expansion when the pieces were struck.
    The next step was edge-reeding that required use of the edging or Castaing machine. A small, tapered hole was punched in the center of the planchet with a wider diameter on one side of the planchet, a narrower diameter on the other side. The tapered hole permitted insertion of a conical silver plug, extending beyond the planchet surface on both sides.
    The prepared planchets were struck using a screw press. As the dies came together, the silver plug was squeezed to the planchet surface, expanding outward, and receiving the design.

    The Present Specimen
    When Walter Breen cataloged this specimen for Pine Tree Rare Coin Auction Sales in 1974, he provided a brief physical description:


    "Natural reddish brown color, faint hints of luster around letters; shallow nick above 2 and space left, no disturbing color, no other handling marks worth mention."


    Today, we might add that small nicks are visible just above the bust line and just over the tip of the fifth hair strand, both useful for provenance research.
    The Silver Center cent is the single most significant and historically important coin ever produced at the Philadelphia Mint. While other official U.S. coins, notably the 1792 half dismes, were struck earlier, the Silver Center cent was the first coin produced within the physical Philadelphia Mint building shortly after its completion near the end of 1792.

    Heritage Link
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    morbidstevemorbidsteve Posts: 571 ✭✭✭
    That is an amazing coin, I just wonder why it's being sold, I would never do such a thing
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭
    I agree that it was well catalogued. Nonetheless, the importance of Alexander Hamilton in regard to the Silver Center Copper Cent pattern is not mentioned. Hamilton is responsible for the original plan in 1792 for each cent to be larger than a half dollar. Indeed, much of the 1792 law regarding coinage and the establishment of the U.S. Mint stems from a plan that Hamilton presented to a Congressional committee. Please read my discussion. Also, I point out that the Weinberg piece is probably of higher quality than the piece in this auction, though I am far from certain of this latter point.

    1792 Silver Center Copper Cent Pattern on the Auction Block

    1792 ‘Fusibly Alloy’ Pattern Cent
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
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    keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,456 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's about to cross the auction block......OH BOY!

    Edit: No additional bidding happened past what was already on the internet...sold for $1,000,000 +Fees
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
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    AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Heritage is auctioning a monster unc silver center cent at Central States:

    link here >>



    A great piece of American numismatic history!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

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