Why is pure silver expressed as .999 fine?

CaptHenway

In the U.S., it is traditional that the fineness of pure silver cannot be expressed as being higher than 0.999 fine, on the grounds that refined silver is likely to still have a trace of some contaminant in it.

It's no big deal, and everybody is used to this convention, but I am curious as to who decided this, and when? Sounds like something that the FTC would handle nowadays, but it seems like this has been going on forever.

Does anybody have any information as to when this was decided, and who decided it?

I have seen European medallions where the fineness was expressed as "1.000."

Thanks.

gecko109

Any silver medallion, bar, round, or other silver product expressed as 1.000 is simply false advertising. Such an animal does not exist in the real world, especially outside a laboratory. I doubt that anything could ever be "pure" in the most fundamental sense of the word. Considering there are multi trillions of silver atoms in even a tiny granule of the metal, there is certain to be at least 1 non-silver atom mixed in. So even 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 immediately denies any claim of 1.000 fineness. Laboratories can probably get silver down to 8,9, or even 10 "nines", but they cant even make the stuff 100% pure.

.999 is pretty darn close.....and close enough for trading the commodity IMO. Although .9999 may be an even tighter standard, even at .999 that means that 100,000 ounces of silver contains within it just 100 ounces of "contaminents".

I would completely disregard any claims of 1.000 fineness on any "made for collectors/consumers" silver products. Its simply just not possible to create an absolutely pure composition. All it takes is 1 non-silver atom in a trillion to falsify such claims. Im ok with .999, and I suspect the majority of the bullion world is as well.

Staircoins

This is pure speculation (two puns there ) on my part, but I'd surmise that the ".999" convention was devised - and is maintained - as a way to cover the producer's behind in the event that an assay turns up an element other than silver.

I don't have a problem with the "1.000" designation either, taking modern refining methods into account and considering rounding to three significant decimal places.

PerryHall

Most bars show 999+ rather than just 999. These bars are mostly made for industrial use and 999 is good enough purity for their purposes.

Baley

In the technical world, there are "Specifications"

0.999 or 0.9999 (or 90%, for that matter) are the Specs.

the product spec sheet for that production run would say

specification: >0.9990 Au
assay: 0.9993 (for example)
result: pass

the assay would have a written analytical method (SOP) with traceable standards, equipment calibration, training log, etc.

the bar would say (claim) either 0.999 or 0.999+ fineness as the silver material grade

edit: "1.000" would be known on the continent as "rounding up"

CaptHenway

Thank you all. I understand the theory behind the ".999" usage. What I am looking for is the law or federal regulation or whatever that requires manufacturers to use it, and the agency responsible for enforcing it.

Let me put it this way... if the Carl LaFong Refining Company were to begin marketing silver bars marked and advertised as "1.000 FINE," what agency would issue the cease and desist order, and under what authority?

nibanny

Capt, see if you find anything here.
I have it saved in my bookmarks but never read it.

LINK

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Thank you all. I understand the theory behind the ".999" usage. What I am looking for is the law or federal regulation or whatever that requires manufacturers to use it, and the agency responsible for enforcing it.

Let me put it this way... if the Carl LaFong Refining Company were to begin marketing silver bars marked and advertised as "1.000 FINE," what agency would issue the cease and desist order, and under what authority? >>




You might ask you question at the bottom of this page.

secondrepublic

I've never heard of any government agency in the US directly regulating the purity of silver or requiring companies to say ".999" fine. My guess is that when silver bars started being produced for the commercial market in the 1960s and 1970s, the .999 purity level was the most cost-efficient for that particular product. In other words, they could have gone to .9999 or .99999, but it would have been too costly to refine bars to that purity level, given what the retail market was willing to pay for investment silver.

The European bars which say "1.000" are obviously "rounding up" from .9998 (or whatever), just like the .999 bars are probably "rounding down" from .9993 (or whatever). No real difference in my mind.

jmski52

Following up on Baley's reference to specifications, it would only really matter if a process or a product required purity greater than a specified level in order for the process or product to perform correctly. A electro-deposition process might need to have .999+ silver in order for circuitry to be reliable, or a medical isotope might require .99999+ in order to fall within the parameters of a research project.

Staircoins

Although it is not a federal entity, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) publishes the Standard Specification for Refined Silver that the industry follows.

It sets forth standards for .9990, .9995 and .9999 and can be downloaded from their website for $35.



Edit: The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) makes available a similar (the same?) document here. Here's the abstract:

Abstract

This specification deals with refined silver cast bar form in three different grades as indicated by the degree of fineness of silver: Grade 99.90 (UNS P07020) which is also commonly referred to as commercial bar or bullion; Grade 99.95 (UNS P07015); and Grade 99.99 (UNS P07010). The material shall be produced by any process and shall conform to the chemical composition requirements for silver, copper, bismuth, iron, lead, palladium, selenium, and tellurium as shall be determined by any destructive or nondestructive method of chemical analysis. The bar shall be cast with a brand and shall be marked with the minimum fineness together with the melt number, bar number, and weight for identification.

Staircoins

<< <i>... if the Carl LaFong Refining Company were to begin marketing silver bars marked and advertised as "1.000 FINE," what agency would issue the cease and desist order, and under what authority? >>

Mr. LaFong's company could probably produce his non-standard bars legally, but they would not be in compliance with recognized U.S. industry standards, as set forth in my prior post.

It would be like producing a 5/8" socket set. You could do it, but everyone else is making (and buying) 1/4", 3/8" or 1/2" - so your audience would be pretty limited.

CaptHenway

<< <i>Capt, see if you find anything here.
I have it saved in my bookmarks but never read it.

LINK >>



Thanks. Some interesting stuff, but not what I am looking for.

It is interesting in that it sets a tolerance of purity of four parts per thousand, so that something marked .999 could be as low as .995 and still be legal.

Some of the laws quoted could be used to prosecute the people bringing fake silver rounds in from China, if anybody in authority cared to.

TD

Timbuk3

Not my post, but thanks for
the information !!!

MsMorrisine

laws.

as in the laws concerning gasoline octane and the state testing pumps to make sure they dispense what amount of fuel they say they dispense.


are there laws concerning fineness of silver and gold?



we do have laws convering standards in some things (weights and measures), so good question.


Much Google would have to be used on this one, I think.

CaptHenway

<< <i>laws.

as in the laws concerning gasoline octane and the state testing pumps to make sure they dispense what amount of fuel they say they dispense.


are there laws concerning fineness of silver and gold?



we do have laws convering standards in some things (weights and measures), so good question.


Much Google would have to be used on this one, I think. >>



If you can find any law that mandates it, you are way ahead of me.

InYHWHWeTrust

<< <i>laws.

as in the laws concerning gasoline octane and the state testing pumps to make sure they dispense what amount of fuel they say they dispense.


are there laws concerning fineness of silver and gold?



we do have laws convering standards in some things (weights and measures), so good question.


Much Google would have to be used on this one, I think. >>



That is where my thought process was going reading the OP (great topic btw), but not so much legality, but you'll find the answer for the convention of 999 the same place where the official "gallon" "gram" or "meter" reside. And since most of us don't tote around barbaric scales doing transactions, whether that sucker is 'light' or 'short', well, then... we have to have a law and agency overseeing that for us.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>laws.

as in the laws concerning gasoline octane and the state testing pumps to make sure they dispense what amount of fuel they say they dispense.


are there laws concerning fineness of silver and gold?



we do have laws convering standards in some things (weights and measures), so good question.


Much Google would have to be used on this one, I think. >>



If you can find any law that mandates it, you are way ahead of me. >>



well, if you sell something as a PM that isn't, that can fall under fraud.


But to the "standards" issue... an interesting start:

Congress controls the coins per the Constitution.

Article I , Section 8
Section 8.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

MsMorrisine

<< <i>That is where my thought process was going reading the OP (great topic btw), but not so much legality, but you'll find the answer for the convention of 999 the same place where the official "gallon" "gram" or "meter" reside. And since most of us don't tote around barbaric scales doing transactions, whether that sucker is 'light' or 'short', well, then... we have to have a law and agency overseeing that for us. >>



scales come under state law.

my state has specific wording on their site for regulating "devices" to determine quantities of precious metals, and yes the term PM is actually explicitly used.

MsMorrisine

here is a start.

the drawback is the date specified in this section: manufactured after June 13, 1907


but you could certainly go after them for fake pandas, eagles, etc!


15 USC § 294 - IMPORTATION OR TRANSPORTATION OF FALSELY MARKED GOLD OR SILVER WARE PROHIBITED

It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, corporation, or association, being a manufacturer of or wholesale or retail dealer in gold or silver jewelry or gold ware, silver goods or silverware, or for any officer, manager, director, or agent of such firm, corporation, or association to import or export or cause to be imported into or exported from the United States for the purpose of selling or disposing of the same, or to deposit or cause to be deposited in the United States mails for transmission thereby, or to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common carrier for transportation from one State, Territory, or possession of the United States, or the District of Columbia, to any other State, Territory, or possession of the United States, or to said District, in interstate commerce, or to transport or cause to be transported from one State, Territory, or possession of the United States, or from the District of Columbia, to any other State, Territory, or possession of the United States, or to said District, in interstate commerce, any article of merchandise manufactured after June 13, 1907, and made in whole or in part of gold or silver, or any alloy of either of said metals, and having stamped, branded, engraved, or printed thereon, or upon any tag, card, or label attached thereto, or upon any box, package, cover, or wrapper in which said article is incased or inclosed, any mark or word indicating or designed or intended to indicate that the gold or silver or alloy of either of said metals in such article is of a greater degree of fineness than the actual fineness or quality of such gold, silver, or alloy, according to the standards and subject to the qualifications set forth in sections 295 and 296 of this title.



PS, we need to have the law changed to include other metals.

MsMorrisine

wooo

15 USC § 298 - VIOLATIONS OF LAW

(a) Criminal prosecutions; penalties; jurisdiction

Each and every person, firm, corporation, or association, being a manufacturer of or a wholesale or retail dealer in gold or silver jewelry, gold ware, silver goods, or silverware, who or which shall knowingly violate any of the provisions of sections 294 to 300 of this title, and every officer, manager, director, or managing agent of any such corporation or association having knowledge of such violation and directly participating in such violation or consenting thereto, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof in any court of the United States having jurisdiction of crimes within the district in which such violation was committed or through which has been conducted the transportation of the article in respect to which such violation has been committed, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more than three months, or both, at the discretion of the court. Whenever the offense is begun in one jurisdiction and completed in another it may be dealt with, inquired of, tried, determined, and punished in either jurisdiction in the same manner as if the offense had been actually and wholly committed therein.


(b) Suits by competitors, customers, or subsequent purchasers for injunctive relief; damages and costs

Any competitor, customer, or competitor of a customer of any person in violation of section 294, 295, 296, or 297 of this title, or any subsequent purchaser of an article of merchandise which has been the subject of a violation of section 294, 295, 296, or 297 of this title, shall be entitled to injunctive relief restraining further violation of sections 294 to 300 of this title and may sue therefor in any district court of the United States in the district in which the defendant resides or has an agent, without respect to the amount in controversy, and shall recover damages and the cost of suit, including a reasonable attorney’s fee.


(c) Suits by jewelry trade associations for injunctive relief; damages and costs

Any duly organized and existing jewelry trade association shall be entitled to injunctive relief restraining any person in violation of section 294, 295, 296, or 297 of this title from further violation of sections 294 to 300 of this title and may sue therefor as the real party in interest in any district court of the United States in the district in which the defendant resides or has an agent, without respect to the amount in controversy, and if successful shall recover the cost of suit, including a reasonable attorney’s fee. If the court determines that the action has been brought frivolously, for purposes of harassment, or in implementation of any scheme in restraint of trade, it may award punitive damages to the defendant.


(d) Award of costs to defendant

Any defendant against whom a civil action is brought under the provisions of sections 294 to 300 of this title shall be entitled to recover the cost of defending the suit, including a reasonable attorney’s fee, in the event such action is terminated without a finding by the court that such defendant is or has been in violation of sections 294 to 300 of this title.


(e) Jurisdiction of civil actions

The district courts shall have exclusive original jurisdiction of any civil action arising under the provisions of sections 294 to 300 of this title.




PS we need to change the law to any trade association