Where are the common Lib 5's?

mr1931S

of around 1850

mr1931S

I check on ebay and see plenty of Charlotte and Dahlonega coins,1848,1849,1850,1851 but where are the Phillies?

DaveG

I suspect you'll find them at Heritage auctions (check their website for their archives) and (sometimes) in the inventories of larger dealers.

However, I also suspect that these coins aren't as common as one might think from their mintages. The half eagles of this period actually circulated (at least to some extent) and, as they became worn, they were returned to the mints to be melted and recoined.

Because gold was money back then, merchants and bankers were very, very fussy about their coins being full weight, so even coins with as little wear as an XF has might very well be sent back for recoinage.

I think that Doug Winter has some articles about pre-Civil War Philly half eagles in the archive section of his website, which will give you some perspective on how many examples survive.

ranshdow

The 1847, 1851, 1852, and 1854 Philly half eagles seemed more common a few years ago than they are these days, I agree. They were cheap then too, nice examples of these could be had in AU58 for $1000 or less, retail. Maybe the nicer ones have ended up in strong hands?

RYK

1847, 1852, 1853, and 1856 are the most common No Motto Philly dates. The 1844-O is the most common NO date and one of the most common of the type. There is little collector interest in the Philly dates, so they are less commonly slabbed and offered for sale, but they are out there if you look for them.

mr1931S

Thanks you all for the helpful information.

I was reviewing the offerings of an upcoming estate auction and noticed that one of the coins offered is $5 1849 ANACS AU50.A coin like this would be affordable for me.

What is the typical discount from PCGS price for ANACS graded gold? There are no images of the coin available.

There's also a $10 1844-0 NGC AU55 in this auction.Checking ebay I see two of these being offered at this time,one is raw and one is in non-PCGS holder.The auctioneer is describing the 1844-0 as "rare" but my experience,limited as it may be,is that if I see numbers of "rare" coins of certain date and mint being offered on ebay at the same time it can't be all that rare.

PerryHall

<< <i>What is the typical discount from PCGS price for ANACS graded gold? There are no images of the coin available. >>



You can't generalize since it depends on what generation ANACS slab (the early small ones were graded fairly conservatively) and on the merits of the individual coin.

BillJones

The "No Motto" $5 and $10 gold coins have never been common in strict Mint State condition. The $10 gold is a good deal rarer, but the $5 gold pieces are not as easy as you might think. These coins actually did circulate, and $5 was a lot money to just put aside in a coin cabinet for a collection. These days the "It's Mint State or it's nothing" attitude has undoubtedly sent a lot of these coins into the “dark side” of numismatic marketing.

Here are the two I have or have had as type coins.

I have this 1861 because of its Civil War date.




I bought this 1852 off a local dealer's bid wall for not much more than a "With Motto" type coin would have cost in the same grade. The coin just did not draw much interest.

RYK

The 1861 $5 is the most common No Motto $5. The 1844-O is the second most common. I currently own three of the latter.

I need an 1849 $5 for a set, so if it is nice, please buy it, and sell it to me.

There are no generalizations for price spreads. Look at the coin. Look at the auction history and make your best guess.

BillJones

I'd love to find a nice 1844-O to complete my "all seven mints" $5 gold set. I had one years ago, but sold it when I got tired of the seven mints set I assembled back then. The trouble with that set was a couple of the coins were not in grades that I really admired. That 1844-O was actually my favorite coin in the set, and I'm sorry it's gone.

PerryHall

<< <i>The 1861 $5 is the most common No Motto $5. >>



Agree but it's a neat year since the Civil War started in 1861. All gold coins from 1861 (with the exception of $3's) are fairly common since the government had to produce a lot of gold coins to buy war materiel/supplies to fight the war and contractors (especially foreign contractors) wanted to get paid in gold. It wasn't until later that the government started to print paper "green back" notes.

BillJones

I've been working an 1861 Philadelphia mint gold year, without the $3 gold. I'm down to the $10 gold, which is the hardest one to find, next to the $3 gold.

jmb

<< <i> It wasn't until later that the government started to print paper "green back" notes. >>



The $5, $10 and $20 Demand Notes were issued to the public on August 26, 1861.

PerryHall

<< <i>I've been working an 1861 Philadelphia mint gold year, without the $3 gold. I'm down to the $10 gold, which is the hardest one to find, next to the $3 gold. >>



I have an 1861 gold type set (including the $3) that I put together several years ago but they are all in the middle to upper AU grades which is all I could afford at the time. You're right that, with the exception of the $3, the $10 is harder to find than any of the other denominations which are readily available. It's a very neat set from a very important year in American history.

DaveG

mr1874,

One thing you have to be very careful of in buying no-motto gold is to buy coins that are "original". Large numbers of southern gold, especially, has been dipped or otherwise "messed with" to get the coin into a slab with a higher grade label. One frequently sees AU-50 coins that have been turned into bright shiny AU-55 coins.

I recommend highly (if you're going to focus on this area) that you look at a lot of coins in person before you buy any and that you learn what an "original" coin looks like, which means that you shouldn't buy on eBay (nor use eBay for price comparisons) or from Heritage auctions (unless you have a trusted agent look at the coins first), nor use Heritage prices for comparison (unless you know what the coin looks like).

I highly recommend that you visit Doug Winter's website to view his coins and read his descriptions and also visit Gold Rush Gallery's website - also that you make the effort to attend shows where either dealer will be and view their coins in person.



Also, as far as "common" goes, you have to view that term in context. For example, Doug Winter estimates that about 1,500 - 2,500 1847 half eagles exist in all grades, versus about 450 - 550 1844-O half eagles; versus about 250 - 300 1844-O eagles.

coinkat

I have always liked the 5 and 10 No Motto gold. I agree that the 1844-o 5 is the most common of the NO 5 No Motto dates- I really like the one I have that I bought raw was graded many, many years ago as a 53.