Trouble for the NO Saints!

Barndog

defense and coaching staff ran a "bounty" program. Not good at all. I'd expect fines, suspensions, firings, and draft pick penalties to come out of this.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7638603/new-orleans-saints-defense-had-bounty-program-nfl-says

Justacommeman

this is blowing up big time. If it is proven that money exchanged hands for the Warner or Favre cart off injuries the Saints are going to pay big time. The gambling aspect (pooling of money) of this is going to be played up as well. This will make the Patriot's Spygate look tame. I can see Goodell wiping out all or most of their draft picks for a season. Yes, this probably goes on all over the league, however just don't get caught.

Benson told his coaches to stop when he heard about it. Basically they told the ole man to buggar off. MJ

recbball

"you can't put a bounty on a man's head"

Barndog

if I own the team and I ask someone to do or not do something, I expect the order to be executed post haste. I'd be firing the coach ASAP. The NFL has thousands of pages of documentation from the investigation. The Saints are not going to pull a Ryan Braun on this one. They're going to suffer.

Justacommeman

<< <i>if I own the team and I ask someone to do or not do something, I expect the order to be executed post haste. I'd be firing the coach ASAP. The NFL has thousands of pages of documentation from the investigation. The Saints are not going to pull a Ryan Braun on this one. They're going to suffer. >>



Reportedly, not only did then-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams (now with the St. Louis Rams) have full knowledge of (and contributed to) the bounty fund, but Bob Glauber of Newsday indicated that head coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis knew of the practice and refused to put a stop to it when team owner Tom Benson told them to. According to Schefter, the reports from league security have been corroborated by several independent sources.
In his first public statement after the findings were released, Benson seemed to have trouble grasping the severity of the situation.

"I have offered and the NFL has received our full cooperation in their investigation. While the findings may be troubling, we look forward to putting this behind us and winning more championships in the future for our fans."

Something tells us it won't be that easy. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, long an advocate (at least verbally) for player safety, released the following statement on Friday:

"Our investigation began in early 2010 when allegations were first made that Saints players had targeted opposing players, including Kurt Warner of the Cardinals and Brett Favre of the Vikings.
"It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated.
"We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it."

TheRegulator

Damn them all.

Hopefully every single one of the Saints involved in this gets kicked out of the NFL. As a Vikings fan, the Vikes/Saints Championship game was probably the most heartbreaking game I have ever watched. It was obvious that the Saints were trying to hurt the Vikings players, especially Favre. All this just one week after the Saints made it their game plan to destroy Kurt Warner.

My brother and I were at the Saints/Vikings game this past season and once again, the Saints were playing dirty. This time trying to hurt Adrian Peterson.

I did think it was beautiful karma this past season when Coach Payton's leg was broken. If they had their Super Bowl title stripped that would be fantastic. I understand that football is a violent sport, and sometimes I feel guilty for enjoying it, but this "bounty" deal is just beyond infuriating. Sometimes you just have to come down so hard that no one will even think of doing such a thing again.

JoeBanzai

I agree that it looked like the Saints were intentionally trying to hurt Favre. I felt that the better team did not win that day....................and now I know it!

Shame on the Saints.

Joe

WTCG

I see suspensions and lite fines but no banishments from the league. If he stays in NO the biggest loser will be Drew Brees. He'll have a giant target on him.

VikingDude

They should have to forfeit their wins from 2009

Barndog

I usually hate the IRS, but I do hope someone there catches wind of this and gets the idea that some of those players have unreported income and might need an audit.

PowderedH2O

You guys have convinced me. I am going to start pulling for the Vikings because they NEVER try any cheap shots.

well, almost never

hardly ever

And Favre was such an innocent player...

JoeBanzai

The Allen shots look pretty cheap but the Farve block was not a "crack-back" block. Allen has had a few cheap shots thrown his way as well.

You are totally missing the point, the Saints were not just taking random cheap shots in the heat of the game, I am sure you could find footage of that on any team. They had a pool of money and gave rewards to players who hurt other players. Undefenseable.

If you saw the game, you would have noticed a pattern right from the start of the game of one late hit and cheap shot after another on Favre, I believe that the announcers even commented on the fact that when Favre was hit cheaply right after a roughing the passer penalty that the Referees would "cause a riot" if they called another roughing penalty so soon.

Even before the end of the game when it looked like the Vikings were going to drive for the winning field goal the comment was made that Favre was so banged up he might not be able to play in the Super Bowl.

This was one of the worst officiated games in NFL history and now it has become a travesty!

Joe

PowderedH2O

If you saw the game? Uh... yeah I saw it. I saw Brees take a couple of cheap shots too. The difference is that the Saints won, so the fans didn't whine about it.

PowderedH2O

At least it gave you guys something new to complain about. Before that, I had always heard from the Vikings that the worst officiated game ever was the playoff game when Drew Pearson "pushed off" to cost the Vikings the season in which they were going to win the Super Bowl for sure. Darn shame that these calls never seem to go in the Vikings favor. I think it is a conspiracy.

57loaded

what is also weird (maybe) is that the NFL was looking into this for two years b4 coming out.

PowderedH2O

They said he also did this in Washington. So why did it take this long to come out?

dfr52

I really don't see it as a big deal. Coaches have their players go after the opposition all the time. I doubt the money provided any additional motivation.

Brick

I would expect this to be self policing. You go after my QB, I go after you. Same as in Baseball you throw at a batter expect it to come back to you.

Boopotts

<< <i>I really don't see it as a big deal. Coaches have their players go after the opposition all the time. I doubt the money provided any additional motivation. >>



This sums up my feeling as well. If it's a dirty hit then Goodell fines them. If it's not a dirty hit then the issue is a non-starter, regardless of any money the defensive coordinator may be funnelling to the player doing the hitting.

Tabe

<< <i>At least it gave you guys something new to complain about. Before that, I had always heard from the Vikings that the worst officiated game ever was the playoff game when Drew Pearson "pushed off" to cost the Vikings the season in which they were going to win the Super Bowl for sure. Darn shame that these calls never seem to go in the Vikings favor. I think it is a conspiracy. >>


Worst-officiated game - playoff game anyway - was Super Bowl XL with the Steelers and Seahawks. I mean, c'mon, Hasselbeck got called for a "low blocK" while making a tackle.

Tabe

JoeBanzai

Powdered try to stay on point. Yes the Dallas game had a horrible call that led to a loss (I saw that entire game as well and still cry about it).

The POINT is the Saints were intentionally trying to hurt an opposing player AND had a reward out for it at the same time.

Hard hits and even cheap shots are a part of the game. Paying players under the table that could lead to possibly end someone's career is reprehensible!

Bye

Joe

prthd

I think this might have some impact on Drew Brees contract issues. He might just say im out of here.

That then would shake up alot of things. Miami, Washington, Cleveland, RGIII, Seattle. It could be an epic off season.

PowderedH2O

I am very much on point. This is football, not chess. Guys go out to punish the other team. Look at the videos that NFL Films produces. Guys like Dick Butkus and Deacon Jones talk about how they would try to rip the head off of the quarterback. As a defensive player, one of the thought patters of most players SHOULD be "If I hit this guy hard enough, he either isn't going to get up or he will not be able to perform at his best for the remainder of the game due to injury or fear". I guarantee you that when Ray Lewis or James Harrison hits someone, they try to inflict the greatest amount of punishment that can be inflicted.

As far as the Vikings-Saints game goes, there have been no fines levied against a single player from any hits in that game. And as I recall, Favre was still flinging the ball down the field right down to the Vikings' last offensive play. On the Warner play, Kurt Warner was coming up to the ball carrier intending to make a tackle. He was injured by a LEGAL block. Nothing dirty about it. If Warner didn't want to get hurt, he should have stayed out of the way after throwing the pick.

I'll be honest, the Vikings should have won the game. They totally outplayed the Saints. But they turned the ball over too many times and it burned them. It wasn't the refs.

Barndog

former players are suing the NFL over injuries sustained during their playing days. No doubt the players' attorneys will bring up the failure of the NFL to have a set of rules and enforcement of those rules that support player safety. So the NFL has to come down hard on the Saints for this to demonstrate its commitment to player safety...for this lawsuit and the untold number of follow-on lawsuits that will happen as players retire, blow all their money, then turn to lawyers to try to create new wealth for them

jeffcbay

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

This is ridiculous... what are they going to be wearing skirts next season? This is FOOTBALL!! If you're not out to hurt someone, then they're going to hurt you first! If you don't think EVERY TEAM has something like this in place, then I don't know what sport you're watching. Why single-out the Saints?

stown

<< <i>I am very much on point. This is football, not chess. Guys go out to punish the other team. Look at the videos that NFL Films produces. Guys like Dick Butkus and Deacon Jones talk about how they would try to rip the head off of the quarterback. As a defensive player, one of the thought patters of most players SHOULD be "If I hit this guy hard enough, he either isn't going to get up or he will not be able to perform at his best for the remainder of the game due to injury or fear". I guarantee you that when Ray Lewis or James Harrison hits someone, they try to inflict the greatest amount of punishment that can be inflicted.

As far as the Vikings-Saints game goes, there have been no fines levied against a single player from any hits in that game. And as I recall, Favre was still flinging the ball down the field right down to the Vikings' last offensive play. On the Warner play, Kurt Warner was coming up to the ball carrier intending to make a tackle. He was injured by a LEGAL block. Nothing dirty about it. If Warner didn't want to get hurt, he should have stayed out of the way after throwing the pick.

I'll be honest, the Vikings should have won the game. They totally outplayed the Saints. But they turned the ball over too many times and it burned them. It wasn't the refs. >>



Exactly. Let's just ignore the typical MO of announcers saying "get after the QB", rolling ticker displaying QB hits/sacks/hurries, and ESPN's favorite segment of "JACKED UP!!".

Nothing to see here, move along.

VikingDude

<< <i>As far as the Vikings-Saints game goes, there have been no fines levied against a single player from any hits in that game >>



Huh?

JoeBanzai

Quote from StarTribune.com;

"Three New Orleans Saints players were fined a total of $30,000 for four different hits in Sunday's NFC Championship game. Three of those hits were delivered to Brett Favre.

As we mentioned earlier Bobby McCray was fined $20,000 for two hits on Favre. The first came after Favre handed off to Percy Harvin in the first quarter. McCray then hit Favre in the knees on his interception in the third quarter, causing Favre to suffer a left ankle injury.

Defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he lifted Favre up and slammed him to the turf in the third quarter."

Quote from Rant Sports;

"There were a few 15-yard personal foul penalties committed by the Saints that the referees called but film of the game suggests there should have been far more flags thrown then actually were. Specifically, the play in which defensive lineman Bobby McCray and defensive tackle Remi Ayodele committed a high-low aggressive tackle on Favre that was not penalized. Favre is convinced that is the play when he broke his ankle. Footage shows McCray twisting Favre’s ankle and foot while the veteran quarterback fell to the ground in agonizing pain."


Hard hits are part of the game, intimidation is part of the game, having cash awards for injuring the opposing players IS NOT PART OF THE GAME!

Joe

recbball

This can't help.

Shady character Ornstein involved in Saints case

stown

Long read by Peter King:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1195695/1/index.htm

PowderedH2O

Lets just have them wear skirts and play two hand touch. If we are going to legislate hitting out of football, then you can have it. I'll go watch Aussie Rules.

Tabe

<< <i>Lets just have them wear skirts and play two hand touch. If we are going to legislate hitting out of football, then you can have it. I'll go watch Aussie Rules. >>


Yeah, cuz CLEARLY that's what this issue is all about - banning hitting. Yep, you nailed it.

Tabe

Justacommeman

<< <i>

<< <i>Lets just have them wear skirts and play two hand touch. If we are going to legislate hitting out of football, then you can have it. I'll go watch Aussie Rules. >>


Yeah, cuz CLEARLY that's what this issue is all about - banning hitting. Yep, you nailed it. >>



Clearly there isn't enough brutal clean hits in the normal flow of the game to satisfy the masses that having a bounty system is clearly the way to go. God knows every team is already 3 deep at QB anyways.

Over four quarters that Sunday at the Superdome, Favre was hit repeatedly and hard. The league later fined Saints defensive linemen Bobby McCray and Anthony Hargrove a total of $25,000 for three separate improper hits, and NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira said the Saints should have been flagged for a brutal high-low mashing by McCray and defensive lineman Remi Ayodele in the third quarter. Favre suffered a badly sprained left ankle on that play and had to be helped off the field. On the New Orleans sideline, Hargrove excitedly slapped hands with teammates, saying, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!"

An on-field microphone directed toward the sideline caught an unidentified defender saying, "Pay me my money!"

PowderedH2O

Well, Tabe, am I wrong? In the past few years the NFL has banned helmet to helmet hits (which if you've ever played football, is pretty difficult not to do if a ball carrier is leading with their helmet), banned hitting a quarterback below the knees, banned horse collar tackles, and banned hitting players when they are away from the action and not paying attention. If Goodell has his way, there will be a designated area (above the knee and below the shoulders) where a player can be hit.
I also doubt seriously that the Saints are alone in this. Others will come out. I'm sure that the team and those involved will get fined and suspended heavily. They might take some draft picks. They need to suck it up and move on and put it behind them. Williams is gone and so is that era.

stown

<< <i>If Goodell has his way, there will be a designated area (above the knee and below the shoulders) where a player can be hit. >>



Only if both players are facing each other and in process of making a football move. Otherwise, 15 yard penalty for unsportsman like conduct and player is suspended for the remainder of the season.

swartz1

I hope they play with flags next year...

c'mon, this is football...play hard or dont play at all...

Tabe

<< <i>Well, Tabe, am I wrong? >>


In a word?

Yes.





<< <i> In the past few years the NFL has banned helmet to helmet hits (which if you've ever played football, is pretty difficult not to do if a ball carrier is leading with their helmet), banned hitting a quarterback below the knees, banned horse collar tackles, and banned hitting players when they are away from the action and not paying attention. If Goodell has his way, there will be a designated area (above the knee and below the shoulders) where a player can be hit. >>


And what does this have to do with the bounty program? Absolutely nothing, that's what.

And that's what I was responding to - your linking a bounty program that rewards intentionally injuring players and illegal hitting with "legislating hitting out of football". You made a huge leap from one subject to another not-related one.

Let me address all of the things you mentioned:

- the NFL has banned helmet to helmet hits (which if you've ever played football, is pretty difficult not to do if a ball carrier is leading with their helmet)

If you watched the NFL and knew the rule, you would know that it's legal to hit a ballcarrier helmet-to-helmet. You can't hit WRs or QBs like that but you can WRs helmet to helmet once they've become a runner.

- banned hitting a quarterback below the knees

This is a good rule, whether you like it or not. It's also easy to avoid doing.

- banned horse collar tackles

Another excellent rule. Sorry, but these types of tackles are just too unsafe to allow.

- banned hitting players when they are away from the action and not paying attention

This one I go back and forth on. On the one hand, guys should protect themselves on the field at all times. On the other hand, guys like Warren Sapp peeling back to hit an offensive lineman 50 yards away from the play is just cheap and dirty. So I have no problem with this rule either.

I coached football at the high school level. Proper tackling technique eliminates 99% of the tackles that are banned yet doesn't lessen the amount of hitting. If guys weren't dropping their heads to make tackles, and were tackling with their facemasks and arms like you're supposed to, this wouldn't even be an issue. But players want the "kill shot" rather than just a tackle.



<< <i>I also doubt seriously that the Saints are alone in this. Others will come out. I'm sure that the team and those involved will get fined and suspended heavily. They might take some draft picks. They need to suck it up and move on and put it behind them. Williams is gone and so is that era. >>


And good riddance to both. There's no place in professional sports for teams and coaches rewarding players for injuring their opponents. None.

Tabe