Happy Birthday, General Washington

Pistareen · February 22, 2012 1:15AM

Surely there should be a thread commemorating the Father of Our Country's 280th birthday?

Post up your George Washington portrait pieces here, coins, medals, tokens, or paper money. I bet just about everyone here has something.

Favorite Washington tidbit: Martha Washington liked showing visitors to Mount Vernon Washington's own collection of medals, including his boxed set of Comitia Americana medals and his gold Washington Before Boston medal, awarded by Congress.

While he never owned an Eccleston medal (he died 6 years early), Jefferson did -- and Jefferson's is still on display at Monticello.

GolfguyinTX · February 22, 2012 1:19AM

Nice strike

OldEastside · February 22, 2012 1:42AM

Happy Birthday George

Steve

mmotx · February 22, 2012 1:58AM

Or was it February 11th

golden · February 22, 2012 5:13AM

Happy Birthday!

Broadstruck · February 22, 2012 5:17AM

coinsarefun · February 22, 2012 5:27AM

Sonorandesertrat · February 22, 2012 5:46AM

John,
I'll buy you a sandwich (with mustard) if you'll lip-sync 'Happy Birthday, Mr. President' (wearing a blond wig, of course) for your next T project.

WE

curly · February 22, 2012 5:48AM

A little story that I've told before but bears repeating. After the war, Ben Franklin was being ragged by some English politicans. One of them said "Here in Old England we keep a picture of George Washington in our outhouses." "What do you think of that?"

"I think that's a fine idea" said Ben, "for I can't think of a thing that would make an Englishman sh*t faster."

Happy Birthday, General Washington.

BillJones · February 22, 2012 5:52AM

Here is an example of the what many people consider to be the #1 Washington medal, the Washington before Boston piece from the Cometia Americana series on the original die pair. This is the #2 medal in the 100 Greatest American Medals and Tokens book. There they estimate that 25 to 40 of these have survived in copper. My estimate would be on the high end of that range if you count all of the problem pieces.

The Continental Congress awarded a gold medal with this design to Washington after he forced the British to evacuate Boston on March 17, 1776. You will note that this was a little over three months before the Declaration of Independence was signed. The founders, whether they knew it or not, had already reached the point of no return when they voted to award this medal to Washington. You can't expect to award a gold medal to a man who pointed guns at the ships of the mother country and expect to be welcomed back into the fold with open arms. Washington would not get his prize until 1789.

As military victories go the evacuation of Boston was important only as a morale booster. Everyone with a brain knew that the British would be back with a vengeance, which they were after they regrouped in Nova Scotia. Over the rest of year, the British kicked the Continental Army’s collective butts until Washington pulled his daring raid at Trenton, New Jersey on Christmas morning 1776. If he had not had the courage and fortitude to pull off that operation, it is more than likely that there would have been no United States of America. Before then the American cause was at it’s lowest ebb although there would many other trying times.

Pistareen · February 22, 2012 5:58AM

Bill -- yours is a great piece! Very nice.

Problem pieces? I don't know what you mean ...

pmac · February 22, 2012 6:00AM

<< Bill -- yours is a great piece! Very nice.

Problem pieces? I don't know what you mean ...

>>

Bad case of acne?

RedTiger · February 22, 2012 6:12AM

Washington wanted the honorific "His High Mightiness" to be used for addressing the President of the United States. (The King of England was "His Royal Highness.") Populist sentiments prevailed and "Mr. President" is what was used then and now.

BillJones · February 22, 2012 6:19AM

<< "His High Mightiness" >>

That sounds more like something John Adams would have wanted.

DUIGUY · February 22, 2012 7:11AM

coindeuce · February 22, 2012 11:01AM

Pistareen - feel free to post that B-197 "Par Nobile Fratrum" Washington/Lafayette silver piece by Wright & Bale. I am anxiously awaiting the marriage of the piece to the B-197C nickel specimen in my collection.

Aegis3 · February 22, 2012 12:07PM

The Washington Before Boston obverse was later used for the 1974 assay commission medal.

shorecoll · February 22, 2012 12:13PM

Someone please post a Wash Funeral Medal, mine's at the bank and I don't have a pic. Mine's only VG, feel free to post a better one.

mmotx · February 22, 2012 12:55PM

Here is a Funeral Urn Medal in WM.

Regarding the Comitia Americana medal, my gut feeling is that 80-100 originals exist in all conditions. They show up on a relatively frequent basis in American auctions [around 5 a year or so] and are "found" several times a year in European auctions. Considering that a good many are sitting in private and institutional collections, the 25-40 range just seems dated.

illini420 · February 22, 2012 12:59PM

Happy Birthday!!

Just got this recently in a box lot... big medal and pretty neat:

lkeigwin · February 22, 2012 1:05PM

Holy smokes! Spectacular medals.

Pistareen, wonderful image. Bill...well, no surprise. Lovely.
Lance.

Pistareen · February 22, 2012 1:07PM

I'll respectfully disagree with mmotx's ideas on the Washington Before Boston medal population and frequency of offerings. While plenty of restrikes turn up (either from the original obverse with a Paris copy die and edge markings or from the US Mint copy "gunmetal" dies), the originals (two original dies, plain edge, Paris Mint strikes) are few and far between.

The "gunmetal dies" are often misattributed as originals; so too are the Paris Mint restrikes from one of the copy reverses.

The two WBBs posted in this thread are both originals.

Coinosaurus may have some input here.

AnkurJ · February 22, 2012 1:25PM

relicsncoins · February 22, 2012 1:26PM

Not a portrait, but a cool Washington item none the less.

mmotx · February 22, 2012 2:13PM

John,

So, a quick scan does prove 5 a year an ambitious number...however, if you look at Heritage/Stack's/Stack's-Bowers archives, and then add Ford, LaRiviere, and the like that aren't "covered" on-line, I'd bet you'd approach 20 examples. Add 10 copies for institutional holdings, and 15 in U.S. held collections that aren't duplicated by auctions sales. That would place survivors around 45. Where I think it's easy to under-estimate is the number that remain in European collections and non-numismatic hands. Perhaps another 40 is high, but as the condition of these show, they weren't distributed to collectors. I don't think the thought that a decent number have been undiscovered by "the community" is outlandish. As mentioned earlier, examples surfacing in Euro-auctions suggests this theory has merit.

Coinosaurus · February 22, 2012 2:13PM

<< I'll respectfully disagree with mmotx's ideas on the Washington Before Boston medal population and frequency of offerings. While plenty of restrikes turn up (either from the original obverse with a Paris copy die and edge markings or from the US Mint copy "gunmetal" dies), the originals (two original dies, plain edge, Paris Mint strikes) are few and far between.

The "gunmetal dies" are often misattributed as originals; so too are the Paris Mint restrikes from one of the copy reverses.

The two WBBs posted in this thread are both originals.

Coinosaurus may have some input here. >>

Adams/Bentley found 52 originals, but note that they accept multiple reverses as "original," and further state the 2nd reverse accounts for 15-25% of the total. So their count is around 40 not counting the 2nd reverse pairing. My definition - if it matches the dies used to the strike the gold one, it is "original." We can even nitpick here - Stahl showed the die state progression of the original obverse in his monster COAC article (1995). Is an earlier die state more "original" than a later one?? The market will have to decide this. Note that a good fraction of these 40 originals are institutional pieces, further restricting availability. The ANS has three bronze originals plus a mega-collection of trial pieces. Unfortunately, nothing has been found in the archives even suggesting what the initial mintages were.

I've been looking for a nice original one for a long time, and got this one. Compare to the Libertas - there are a few decent ones every year that come up - the WBB original, you have to wait a few years.

Pistareen needs to run a caption contest for the original WBB currently in his inventory

LotsoLuck · February 22, 2012 2:29PM

Pistareen · February 22, 2012 2:32PM

<< So, a quick scan does prove 5 a year an ambitious number...however, if you look at Heritage/Stack's/Stack's-Bowers archives, and then add Ford, LaRiviere, and the like that aren't "covered" on-line, I'd bet you'd approach 20 examples. Add 10 copies for institutional holdings, and 15 in U.S. held collections that aren't duplicated by auctions sales. That would place survivors around 45. Where I think it's easy to under-estimate is the number that remain in European collections and non-numismatic hands. Perhaps another 40 is high, but as the condition of these show, they weren't distributed to collectors. I don't think the thought that a decent number have been undiscovered by "the community" is outlandish. As mentioned earlier, examples surfacing in Euro-auctions suggests this theory has merit. >>

Can't find much to disagree with here! I think our feelings are very similar. These were indeed distributed non-numismatically and they do still turn up in Europe, usually pretty well abused. I suspect that even with Ford, LaRiviere (now 12 years ago! I feel old), and other offerings, the number of originals sold in major American sales in the last 10-12 years is probably less than 15 pieces.

The last piece I had before the one currently on my website (excepting representation work, which I don't count as owning something) came from a German auction; it was EF or so, once mounted, and I owned it for about 30 minutes before a customer snapped it up.

Coinosaurus, not everyone can own a pretty WBB. I bet my appeal-impaired piece has a more interesting history than yours

I sure wish I knew what it was!

Thanks for all the nice input on this thread gentlemen. This is way more fun than silver eagles

Justacommeman · February 22, 2012 3:09PM

late to the dance. MJ

mmotx · February 22, 2012 3:10PM

Thanks Coinosaurus for something more scientific! A fun discussion indeed.

Oh, and as I had alluded to earlier, GW was born on February 11th. When a new calendar was adopted in 1752, it moved to the 22nd.

NumbersUsacom · February 22, 2012 3:25PM

<< Thanks Coinosaurus for something more scientific! A fun discussion indeed.

Oh, and as I had alluded to earlier, GW was born on February 11th. When a new calendar was adopted in 1752, it moved to the 22nd. >>

So which day was he REALLY born on? If the old calendar was deemed wrong then shall we suppose he was actually born on the 22nd and he and his parents just didn't know it quite yet?

Or were these just a bunch of leftist idiots playing with time just like they play with everything else, trying once again to confuse the world and throw us into a socialist republic of which we now have. Amazing what a small group of leftist time bandits can do in the long run.

Pistareen · February 22, 2012 4:01PM

<< Or were these just a bunch of leftist idiots playing with time just like they play with everything else, trying once again to confuse the world and throw us into a socialist republic of which we now have. Amazing what a small group of leftist time bandits can do in the long run. >>

The leftists in question were at the Vatican. Great Britain was the last European nation to adopt the calendar, then the standard in the Western World, which was introduced by Pope Gregory XIII.

NumbersUsacom · February 22, 2012 4:35PM

<< 

<< Or were these just a bunch of leftist idiots playing with time just like they play with everything else, trying once again to confuse the world and throw us into a socialist republic of which we now have. Amazing what a small group of leftist time bandits can do in the long run. >>

The leftists in question were at the Vatican. Great Britain was the last European nation to adopt the calendar, then the standard in the Western World, which was introduced by Pope Gregory XIII. >>

I should have known the Pope was involved, and he coincided that Washingtons Birthday would also be on his Ash Wednesday in 2012, very good forsight that Pope. Thanks for the further clarification Pistareen.

BillJones · February 22, 2012 11:24PM

Two last items from me that no one else as posted yet.

This Washington inaugural button is not really a numismatic item although 19th century collectors tried to turn many of them into one by snapping off the shank. This is one of the most common varieties, but it has the original shank with some of silver wash remaining. As such it's one of the best examples I have seen.

This small size Washington success token remains a controversial item. Was it made in the 1790s or the 1860s? I tend to lean toward the earlier date, but that opinion is probably influenced by ownership.

The design with its heavy Masonic overtones makes me think of the earlier period.

baddogss · February 22, 2012 11:47PM

Coinosaurus · February 23, 2012 1:28AM

<< Coinosaurus, not everyone can own a pretty WBB. I bet my appeal-impaired piece has a more interesting history than yours

I sure wish I knew what it was!
>>

Well, you have to ask yourself. For the same money would you rather have five of yours or one of mine? You can answer as a dealer or collector, the answer may be different depending on your perspective.

After having read up on these the last couple days, the biggest hole in the research seems to be there is zero record of how the silver and bronze originals were distributed. I get the feeling that Jefferson gave the gold and silver (set) to Washington and wiped his hands clean of the matter, leaving the Paris Mint (and connected insiders) in control of the rest of it. Whereas the Libertas was a viscerally-charged political statement, intended to be as such, and Franklin made sure it got distributed all over the place.

Pistareen · February 23, 2012 1:41AM

Jefferson saw to it that sets of Comitia Americana medals (including WBB) were distributed to crowned heads, major learned institutions, etc. That's how most were distributed in Europe -- this is covered by Adams and Bentley to an extent. How individual pieces were distributed is anyone's guess. I suspect Washington probably had some small quantity to distribute himself, to people like trusted lieutenants. We know Nathaniel Greene's lieutenants received bronze strikings of his Comitia Americana medal by official motion of Congress; I would not be surprised if the same thing happened with other Comitia Americana issues.

Regarding your other question, as a collector I'd of course rather have one nice medal than five crummy ones, but as a dealer who used to be a collector of modest means, I like being able to offer something for everyone. I've sold five figure Washington Before Bostons, and I'm happy to offer less expensive ones that allow collectors who can't dream of spending that kind of money to own something that is just as historic, if not equally beautiful. That's a choice I've made as a dealer. If someone has the means, I'd advise them to wait for the better piece. Not everyone does, but I'd like to still give them a chance to participate in collecting these amazing items.

Broadstruck · February 23, 2012 2:26AM

MidLifeCrisis · February 23, 2012 2:38AM

The tall, red headed, slave owning Virginia aristocrat is also one of my favorite historical figures.

I can't post a picture of a Washington piece right now, but...

I particularly like the story of King George III, who asked his American painter, Benjamin West, what Washington would do after winning independence. West replied, “They say he will return to his farm.”

“If he does that,” the monarch said, “he will be the greatest man in the world.”

Happy Birthday, General Washington

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