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Common double eagles for 1oz spot price?
drysideshooter
Posts: 37
A local dealer has some common date double eagle Libs. They are in 2x2's and mostly graded by the seller as VF.
They will sell them for the 1oz spot gold price. For coins that may not currently have much numismatic value is that a fair premium (for .9675 oz) to pay? At first it struck me as a pretty good deal, but being a newbie I though I should come here and see what opinions may be?
They will sell them for the 1oz spot gold price. For coins that may not currently have much numismatic value is that a fair premium (for .9675 oz) to pay? At first it struck me as a pretty good deal, but being a newbie I though I should come here and see what opinions may be?
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``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
That works out to about a 3% premium over the spot price of gold, which seems like a really good deal, especially since it must also have some potential numismatic value?
<< <i>Everything I can find says the double eagles have .9675 oz of gold. Is that not correct? >>
That is correct.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Everything I can find says the double eagles have .9675 oz of gold. Is that not correct? >>
That is correct. >>
My bad
And don't PM me. I got enough unsolicited offers to take a second mortgage out and I think I will.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Is the numismatic value of the 1906-S and that fact that it is PCGS graded MS63 worth the extra $225? I think the deal on the 1906-S is pretty good. Most of them seem to be selling for around $2,300. A dealer in an adjacent state said that he would pay me $2,100 for the 1906-S. Maybe I should buy them both, and sell the 1906-S?
Any thoughts or advice would be genuinely appreciated.
probably once carried a 50-100% premium to spot in MS63, that's probably a fair price. If gold eventually goes much higher you may see a premium of as
little as $50. In 2009 when gold first got to $1200 I owned a MS63 1907-s $20. At that time common dates were heavily promoted up to $2000. All I could get for the rarer
1907-s was $2100. Date premiums for semi-scarce $20 dates will continue to shrink, especially when the grade pops are 500-1500 coins between PCGS and NGC.
A nice problem free VF30-35 for spot is probably a fair buy...assuming gold prices stay where they are. But a slightly problematic piece in VF20-25 might only be worth
under spot at best, esp. if a very common later Type 3 date. The early dates even in VF are at least interesting. Fwiw I note a major gold dealer offering to sell ok VF's
for $5-$10 under spot. And their buy price is 3-4% back of spot. I like the potential of the 1906-s more considering it has the appeal of a lower mintage better date
and is much more subject to promotion. In 2009 they promoted the MS63 $20 Libs from around $1400 to $2000 in just several months. That could happen again on gold's
next major move. Premiums for $20's are currently quite contracted....unlike 2nd half of 2009 when they were last pushed. You can bet VF $20 Libs won't be promoted to
the masses. A CAC sticker adds about $100 to the value of common MS63's. It many not add that much to a 1906-s however.
From what I can tell looking at the auction archives at Heritage and looking on eBay it looks like 1906-S MS63's have been selling there for around $2,300 average. There haven't been a lot of them though, so I suppose it's hard to establish that as an accurate value? Are there places where similar coins might be purchased for less?
On the latest grey sheet it shows MS63's at $1,865 Ask. That is about the $100 difference that you mentioned. I am very much a newbie. Are there places where an average guy like myself, not a dealer, can actually buy common date double eagles for the Ask price?
<< <i>Thank you for an extremely informative reply roadrunner. I really appreciate it.
From what I can tell looking at the auction archives at Heritage and looking on eBay it looks like 1906-S MS63's have been selling there for around $2,300 average. There haven't been a lot of them though, so I suppose it's hard to establish that as an accurate value? Are there places where similar coins might be purchased for less?
On the latest grey sheet it shows MS63's at $1,865 Ask. That is about the $100 difference that you mentioned. I am very much a newbie. Are there places where an average guy like myself, not a dealer, can actually buy common date double eagles for the Ask price? >>
Actually, you should be able to buy inbetween bid and ask from many local shops. But no doubt dealers who have just 1 $20 MS63 $20 Lib in stock will act like it's something special and ask up to $2500 for it. I've seen that a lot. It's quite possible the premiums for better dates have inched up a bit. I haven't followed them that closely this year. But if they only fetched a $100 premium at $1200 gold, I don't quite understand why they would now fetch a $500 premium at $1730 gold. But maybe this market is heating up. Heritage auction archives are a decent source for pricing information but will still reflect closer to retail than wholesale levels. Your best bet in finding good buys on slabbed $20's is hooking up with vest pocket dealers who typically sell off their merchandise to other dealers in order to keep liquid. They often can't afford to sit on $2,000 coins for weeks or months looking for that extra $100. That's probably the case for most of them at local to regional coin shows. They'd rather sell to you at $50-$100 above wholesale than to settle for less with another dealer. And they have the benefit that you might come back someday and sell it back to them. I wouldn't use Ebay as definitive pricing guide unless you are selling there. Heritage is probably more accurate. Ebayers might overpay 5-15% on average just to be a "winner" and save time on having to shop around. But if you're diligent you might occasionally find stuff falling through the cracks on Ebay. Under $2,000 for that 1906-s is certainly not a bad deal if you have an offer of $2100 for it. There are a lot of well respected gold wholesalers who show up at your local 40-50 table shows. You might not see them operate but those are the guys you might want to develop relationships with. They'd much rather buy and sell to you at 2-3% above what they would get from their larger national buying dealers. Seems like your local dealer with the 1906-s might be one to keep tabs on. He may be able to extend his network out a bit if he knows you are a buyer of more slabbed $20's. At my own local shop I noted that most slabbed $20's tended to sit quite while as most gold buyers wanted AGE's, Maples, Krugs, etc. And because of that I often got quoted decent prices on Libs and Saints on my weekly visits. But if I waited too long betw visits out of state dealers would eventually show up and clean house.
roadrunner
I am in Washington state. Any recommendations on good shows or sources to find shows? I see a few coin sellers at some of the gun shows we go to.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>If you do not have a reasonable amount of experience with gold coins, I think that buying a raw gold piece would be risky. Many small dealers make mistakes too, and unknowingly buy counterfeits from time to time. A certified coin would be safer. >>
I second that. And there is generally plenty of certified gold at shows to choose from. If you see a dealer behind a table with a nice gold selection ask him who else you might see.
Most dealers at coin shows don't have shops and those are the ones you would probably want to touch base with first. But there's no risk in checking with coin shop owners as well
as not all of them have ready outlets for the slab gold they buy. But if they know they have you as a buyer in the wings they just might be more aggressive in their buying rather than
trying to rip the seller for 10-20% and lose the deal. Most gold dealers I have worked with were more than happy with making 2-3% on gold transactions. Even the bigger ones aren't
usually over 5% on slabbed $20's. Just start asking around and before you know it you'll develop more contacts and more expertise. Be advised though that there is junk in holders
as well (ie puttied, overgraded, etc.). Getting a great price on an overgraded $20 may not be the bargain you think it is....even if generic gold does tend to trade mainly sight unseen.
Note too that obvious copper and black spots on unstickered $20's typically means at least a $25-$50 deduction...sometimes up to $100-$150 for bad spotting.
<< <i>If you do not have a reasonable amount of experience with gold coins, I think that buying a raw gold piece would be risky. Many small dealers make mistakes too, and unknowingly buy counterfeits from time to time. A certified coin would be safer. >>
Thanks. That was sort of weighing on my mind too. I think I am going to buy the 1906-S. I realize it's has a bit of a numismatic premium, but it sounds like it's reasonable.
The same seller has a 1904 NGC graded MS63 double eagle. These coins were inherited by the seller about eight years ago from a grandfather that collected coins. They want the same price for the 1904. I don't think they realize that the 1906-S probably has more numismatic value. They were asking $2,000 each, or $3,800 for both. I told them I was most interested in just the 1906-S and they said they would sell it for $1,950 on it's own. They indicated that they would really like to sell both, so a bit better deal than the combined $3800 may be possible. I would only like to keep one coin, but does anyone see any profit potential if I could say buy both for $3,700 and sell the 1904? What could I reasonably expect to get for the 1904 selling it some place like the buy and sell forum here?
If these coins are nice for the grade that's another plus. Considering that MS64 $20 Libs are hundreds more than 63's, it makes nice 63's (63 CAC, 63+) worth more.
But to get that a premium for a nice 63 $20 Lib it has to be noticeably more like a 64 than a 63. Everyone thinks their MS 63 is nice or pq...when in fact they are just
average. That's why CAC 63's fetch $100 more or half way between 63 and 64 money.
At only about $200 more than MS63's, I think the MS64 $20 Libs are decent values today around $2000. They were pushed to $2500 two years ago at $1225/oz gold.
Finding nice or quality 64's for close to 64 money is where some leverage is considering generic 65's fetch around $3500.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Whatever I buy I will post some pics when I get them home.
Thanks again for all of the help. Thank you for the reference table too derryb.
This is especially true of $20 gold coins in the low end circulated grades like VF because those coins never have had much appeal to most collectors. For many later 19th century and 20th century gold coins, VF lowest grade that most collectors will even consider, and most of them will pass at that level if they are viewing the coin as a numismatic purchase.
Unless, they are inexperienced or fools or both, they will not take it.
<< <i>I may offer them the gold value (around $1,670) for the 1904...
Unless, they are inexperienced or fools or both, they will not take it. >>
Agree. This might be a fair offer for an XF or even an AU coin, it's a low ball offer for a slabbed MS63.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My thinking with regard to a low offer to this particular seller is that they indicated they want to sell both coins and need the money. They inherited the coins several years ago so have nothing invested in them. It sounds like the dealer they took them to made a low ball offer on the two coins. I will at least take a run at it. You can't get it if you don't at least try. I have been a developer and builder for a lot of years and I've been surprised at some of the deals we've done just by asking.
In the end we may just buy more silver. It's been good so far and we believe in silver's future. We are thinking it might make sense to be somewhat diversified with some gold coins, but with the unknown political climate and economic uncertainty right now it may not make sense. We own our silver mostly in bars. Maybe we'll take a look at some of the silver coins. Any of those that any of you wouldn't reccomend?
Long term, I feel a buy and hold strategy is the best way to go. It is too hard to find nice quality for the grade $20 gold nowadays unless you are willing to pay extra.
The alternative approach has been to accumulate $20 gold in old slabs or gold CAC stickers, etc.
As I understand it, you know next to nothing about these, have pumped the forum for information in order to try to take advantage of someone who knows even less. Got it.
I'd much prefer paying $1900ish for a better date $20 Lib in MS63 than the going rare for an UHR, AGE, or some other modern bullionesque piece. It's an oddity that these
$20 Libs and Saints survived in choice/gem condition is large quantities. As far as I know there's no other 1 ounce world gold coin from the pre-1933 era that has survived
in this manner. The Morgan silver dollar has the same claim on a 1 oz. sovereign silver coin. While we consider both to be common hoarded coins, the rest of the world has no
comparison in these price ranges for 1879 - 1928 coinage. Old English sovs are only 1/4 oz gold and not quite as impressive, but at near melt are interesting values as well.
<< <i>My thinking with regard to a low offer to this particular seller is that they indicated they want to sell both coins and need the money. They inherited the coins several years ago so have nothing invested in them. It sounds like the dealer they took them to made a low ball offer on the two coins. I will at least take a run at it. You can't get it if you don't at least try. I have been a developer and builder for a lot of years and I've been surprised at some of the deals we've done just by asking.
As I understand it, you know next to nothing about these, have pumped the forum for information in order to try to take advantage of someone who knows even less. Got it. >>
I believe a local dealer offered them around $3,400 for both coins. I was thinking of offering $3,600. Looking at the grey sheet that doesn't seem out of line and I certainly wouldn't call it taking advantage of them. They want the money and have the coins, I would buy both coins if I could get them for $3,600. That is $200 more than they were previously offered. I would never try to take advantage of someone, but looking at pricing, and based on what roadrunner has said about being able to buy the coins for between the grey sheet bid and ask, that seems like a fair deal. They are certainly free to say no, and I will probably just buy the 1906 then. I won't act like an expert and try to give them some BS reasoning why they should sell them for that. I will tell them that is what I am willing to pay.
<< <i>$1750 would be about what a major dealer would pay for a common date, unspotted 63. If gold drops $100 next week, these go down $100 as well. Inverse is true as well.
I'd much prefer paying $1900ish for a better date $20 Lib in MS63 than the going rare for an UHR, AGE, or some other modern bullionesque piece. It's an oddity that these
$20 Libs and Saints survived in choice/gem condition is large quantities. As far as I know there's no other 1 ounce world gold coin from the pre-1933 era that has survived
in this manner. The Morgan silver dollar has the same claim on a 1 oz. sovereign silver coin. While we consider both to be common hoarded coins, the rest of the world has no
comparison in these price ranges for 1879 - 1928 coinage. Old English sovs are only 1/4 oz gold and not quite as impressive, but at near melt are interesting values as well. >>
Thanks roadrunner, I genuinely appreciate all of your advice and information. I talked to a dealer in an adjacent state the other day and he said he wouldn't pay more than about $1,700 for the 1904, even though it's in an older NGC slab. I am thinking that is about what the local dealer offered these folks for each of the coins as that is what they hinted at.
The 1906-S is in an older green PCGS slab. From what I've read people find these interesting but they don't necessarily bring a premium any more? It sounds like at one time folks believed they could get the conservatively graded OGH coins regraded at a + or higher grade, but that rarely happened?
<< <i>As I understand it, you know next to nothing about these, have pumped the forum for information in order to try to take advantage of someone who knows even less. Got it. >>
Roflmao
<< <i>
<< <i>As I understand it, you know next to nothing about these, have pumped the forum for information in order to try to take advantage of someone who knows even less. Got it. >>
Roflmao
I wish I thought it was funny Poppee. If I came across as trying to take advantage of someone I certainly didn't mean to, and I would never attempt to behave that way. From what I've read I think $3,600 for both coins is fair.
oreville I suspect your strategy will probably pay off. Gold has been great. We owned some powershares ultra gold fund for a while that reacts at 3x the price of golds movement and it was great. We're fairly long silver and think that long term gold and silver will be winners. I think a lot of people are fooled by the performance of the DOW, and if that wasn't the case the metals would be quite a bit higher. Of the S&P 500 companies about 40% of the total revenue was from outside the US. Some of the companies that are big DOW components have been making over half of their revenue overseas. The DOW has only continued to do well largely because of foreign revenues, not because the economy in the US is in such great shape. If more people truly realized how tenuous our economy is right now metals would probably be even higher and climbing.
<< <i>I'm more interested in the 1906-S in the PCGS MS63 OGH. If it's eye appealing and you can get it a bit below the quoted price, so much the better. I'd much rather have a pretty 1906-S double eagle, in an OGH, which would also be a really neat memento of the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906. >>
Thanks for the thoughts. I am going to go take a look at it tomorrow. I don't know much, but I've been looking at a lot of pics and have an app on my phone with pics so hopefully I'll be able to tell if it's an overall nice MS63 based on what I can tell from pics.
So was it because of the earthquake that there were relatively few S's minted in 1906, or is that just a coincidence? Did it cause them to cut the run short or anything or was that just the planned amount for that year anyway?
<< <i>So was it because of the earthquake that there were relatively few S's minted in 1906, or is that just a coincidence? Did it cause them to cut the run short or anything or was that just the planned amount for that year anyway? >>
The 1906-S double eagle mintage is in the same range as those for 1905 and 1907, so the earthquake doesn't appear to have had much of an impact. The mint structure was one of the few buildings in that area of the city to survive the earthquake and subsequent fire.
Oh, this is a nice touch.....
<< <i>My thinking with regard to a low offer to this particular seller is that they indicated they want to sell both coins and need the money. They inherited the coins several years ago so have nothing invested in them >>
Edit, OK, I see one seller is a private seller.
they could indeed be an upgrade candidate hidden there. I know I wouldn't blow off that 1904 just because it's NGC. Based on how you describe how these were acquired I'd
be tempted to take a crack with that NGC 63. If it's not spotted it's worth all of $1750-$1800 regardless of the disdain some local shops have for NGC gold. If it has the
non-hologram reverse (ie gold stenciled) I'd be all over it. If it's as nice or nicer as the 1906-s there's little downside here except the pog. And we could see a $50 drop this
week fwiw. My own experiences with old holdered gold is only rarely the stuff not nice for the grade. There were tougher standards in force back in 1980's and 1990's. Before you
go look at these again check out some MS64's at Heritage auction archives, esp. for the marks allowable. An MS64 1906-s could bring a nice premium.
roadrunner you have really helped me and I really appreciate it.
<< <i>.9167, I believe >>
.9675 is the AGW
.9167 is the purity 22k
<< <i>Here is my quandary. I am going to buy a double eagle this week. There are two that I am considering. One is a 1906-S from a private seller that is in an older PCGS green label slab, MS63. They are asking $1,950 for that coin, though I may be able to get a slightly better deal. The other would be the double eagle that the dealer has. He said it was a common date, I believe it was 1896, but could be wrong. It is in a 2x2 and the dealer has graded it VF. I can buy it for the spot price of 1oz of gold.
Is the numismatic value of the 1906-S and that fact that it is PCGS graded MS63 worth the extra $225? I think the deal on the 1906-S is pretty good. Most of them seem to be selling for around $2,300. A dealer in an adjacent state said that he would pay me $2,100 for the 1906-S. Maybe I should buy them both, and sell the 1906-S?
Any thoughts or advice would be genuinely appreciated. >>
If your trying to make money from a quick flip you really should stay away from coins as you indicated, you know little about. You will probably find it hard to get 2100 from the dealer in the other state. As far as buying gold for spot, nothing wrong with that thought as long as gold keeps going up and the coin you buy is indeed gold
I have no experience at grading coins, but I've collected and worked on firearms for years and have quite a bit of experience at grading those and looking at finishes under magnification. The 1906-S is really, really nice and is in an OGH. I looked at it from 3-8X magnification and there are no spots. There were no deeper marks like I saw on a lot of the other MS63's, mostly some small rub marks on the front, the obverse was really pretty pristine. It seemed well struck and everything was sharp and crisp. It looked much, much more like the MS64's to me. The 1904 is in a NGC fattie slab and also looks very nice, though it had a very few small dark spots on the obverse that were visible under magnification. The bump up to MS64 is big for the 1906-S, but not so much for the 1904.
The 1906-S had me really excited as I believe it could be a potential candidate for an upgrade, or at the least may bring more just as a very nice MS63 in an OGH. I couldn't stand the thought of ever feeling like I may have taken advantage of these nice kids. I told them my honest, non-expert opinion. I told them that I especially thought the 1906-S might be a candidate for an upgrade and bring them quite a bit more money. I told them that I would pay them for both coins right then and there, but that I really would suggest not doing that and further assessing if the coin may be a strong upgrade candidate. They agreed to get some scans of the coin and send to me so that I could post them for opinions. If they can't get good scans they are going to bring them by my house and I will scan them and get some pictures as well.
Her siblings apparently also inherited similar coins, so she was going to find out what they were as well, and if they are also in older slabs. These grand kids may be setting on a bit more money than they thought. This couple had no idea what NGC or PCGS were, or even that the 1904 and 1906 were the years of the coins. The wife just knew that her grandfather collected coins amongst other things.