Once and for all, should cool clashing be a huge collectible?

Realone · February 17, 2012 8:17AM

or just for certain types, or just for very dramatic clashing or is clashing just not on the keen eye's radar? I never know which way to think about this subject matter. To be transparent I have collected a couple of cool clashings but then again they may be just cool to a select few or not cool enough to warrant the attention. Most of the time I admit I am not moved by clashing, typically it's just not significant or interesting enough to me. What does everyone here think about this is they think about this that is.

Sonorandesertrat · February 17, 2012 8:31AM

Certain types of clash marks cause coins to be chased after. For example, there are multidenominational die clashes affecting 1857 flying eagle cents (from a Seated quarter obv die, a Seated half obv die, or a Liberty double eagle obv die). Some years ago, Bill Fivaz (I think) found a corresponding Seated quarter with clash marks from a flying eagle cent. Barndog has an amazing 1837 H10C with reverse clash marks that include the full date. And there are others that have a coolness factor.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 17, 2012 8:34AM

I can't imagine any clashing on any issue, no matter how cool, would ever be considered a "huge" collectable.

bronzemat · February 17, 2012 8:34AM

I love die clashing, my 3 CN and a few of my dimes & half dimes have clashing. Also got some world coins with them, especially peru.

I even have ancients with die clashing, which for ancients is fairly common.

I think they are under appreciated and never got why they werent more popular as well as having a bit of a premium on them.

Lakesammman · February 17, 2012 8:39AM

The only clashes that IMO should carry a "huge" premium are the really cool ones that also have some rarity, like the cross denomination clashes in the FE series.

The other incidental ones can be interesting or distracting but don't/shouldn't carry a huge premium.

Lakesammman · February 17, 2012 9:01AM

By the way, you know this will NOT be once and for all.

291fifth · February 17, 2012 9:04AM

To me, clashing is a negative.

PerryHall · February 17, 2012 9:12AM

Coins struck from clashed dies are interesting and just plain neat.

oneor11 · February 17, 2012 9:12AM

I think it ultimately depends on what brings satisfaction to a given collector. No thread or mass of people can effectively dictate or speculate about the importance or value of die clashed coins to other collectors. Me? I appreciate them because they give a window into what the minting processes and environment were like at the time. There's just so much other stuff in numismatics I'm interested in that i don't have the resources to devote to the clashes.

MikeInFL · February 17, 2012 9:14AM

I find clashing distracting in most circumstances -- but maybe that's just me.

DIMEMAN · February 17, 2012 9:17AM

I don't think you will ever get everybody on the same page of anything.

if you like it..... collect it....if not......don't.

COALPORTER · February 17, 2012 9:24AM

I like die clashes and glad that they dont attract any real $$$ premium. What
is wrong with haveing something cool to collect and not having to pay extra for?
I say nothing!

Lakesammman · February 17, 2012 9:25AM

Borrowed from EERC's wiki - how can you NOT find this clash interesting?? I would pay a huge premium for one.

Baley · February 17, 2012 10:54AM

I answer every thread with the word "should" in the title the same way...

"It Depends"

lkeigwin · February 17, 2012 12:27PM

Clashing alone doesn't send me. But when it's on a beautiful coin...like a colorful LDS, I think it adds value.
Lance.

MidLifeCrisis · February 17, 2012 12:42PM

<< I can't imagine any clashing on any issue, no matter how cool, would ever be considered a "huge" collectable. >>

This.

I consider clashed coins to be errors...and I'm not a big fan of them.

Hotfootspin · February 17, 2012 3:41PM

I love die clashing and die cracks. I see lots of die clashing on three cent silver coins
and other small silver coins, like the half dime I obtained recently on Teletrade. I also
see die clashing on lots of older world coins. Got a few Netherlands 1/2 cents from
the 1880's and 1890's with clashing of the horizontal lines behind the lion.

I see lots of die cracks on all kinds of nickel coins, but especially shield nickels,
probably three cent nickel coins after that.

I've entertained the thought of putting together a type set consisting entirely of
coins that have die clashing or die cracks. I'm already trying to restrict my type
set upgrades to coins that have clashing when possible.

I don't hope to see clashing carry a huge premium, though, because that would
make them harder for me to find and more expensive to buy.

Mark

Unknown · February 17, 2012 3:50PM

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rec78 · February 17, 2012 6:33PM

Yes-I think that PCGS should start a clash registry category.

Which would thereby cause a big increase in clash coin values.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 17, 2012 9:49PM

<< Borrowed from EERC's wiki - how can you NOT find this clash interesting?? I would pay a huge premium for one.

>>

I do find it interesting, but is there any logical explanation for how this happened other than someone in the mint just trying to make something unusual?

RYK · February 17, 2012 10:00PM

I think it can be a charming relic of old minting methods but nothing more than a side show. As an analogy, I would not pay extra to hear so-and-so sing the national anthem at the baseball or football game.

fcloud · February 17, 2012 10:09PM

To each their own. No matter how you look at it, and no matter what is proved or disproved about the 1936-S possible overdate dime some will agree, and some won't. It is really that simple. (That is what this thread is really about anyway.)

PerryHall · February 17, 2012 10:25PM

<< I think it can be a charming relic of old minting methods........ >>

Clashed dies still occur on modern coins using modern minting equipment.

PerryHall · February 17, 2012 10:28PM

Aren't many VAM varieties a result of clashed dies? I don't collect them but many Morgan dollar enthusiasts search out these silver dollar VAM varieties.

oneor11 · February 17, 2012 10:29PM

<< 

<< Borrowed from EERC's wiki - how can you NOT find this clash interesting?? I would pay a huge premium for one.

>>

I do find it interesting, but is there any logical explanation for how this happened other than someone in the mint just trying to make something unusual? >>

Yes. Originally it was thought it was the fun work of a "midnight minter". However, more in-depth studies have shown that these clashes are the artifacts that occurred when they were changing denominations on the press.

From The Official Red Book: Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cents by Richard Snow (great book btw):
"These were caused by accident during the changing of dies during normal coinage production. In the course of changing the dies from one denomination to another, the collar would have to be removed as well as the two dies. This would allow the press to actually cycle with two denomination dies. It may have been common practice to cycle the press once to seat the dies in the press."

Additional info from the aforementioned book:

--This was a major topic of study by Chris Pilliod. "What Error Coins Can Teach Us About Die Settings" April 1996 of The Numismatist.
--The Flying Eagle series had its die setting opposite from the 1857 quarter dollar, half dollar, and double eagle dies (i.e. the reverse of the F.E. was on the hammer die as opposed to the obverse of the quarter, half, and double eagle)

-Jacob

frnklnlvr · February 17, 2012 10:34PM

Franklin Bugs Bunnys have become really popular in the last few years since PCGS added the Complete Variety Set to the Registry. Prices are coming back down on dates that were once thought to be scarce or rare as more and more examples are certified.

Like others have said, collect what you like!

TwoSides2aCoin · February 17, 2012 10:37PM

Wide spreads on doubled die specimens are huge collectibles to me. The masses cannot see what the few find huge.

ricko · February 17, 2012 11:00PM

I find them to be interesting anomalies, but of only passing interest. I do not collect them, at least not intentionally. If I were to find one in my collection, it would be an interesting surprise, but only that. I would not buy a coin because it was clashed. Cheers, RickO

SkyMan · February 18, 2012 1:52AM

HUGE is rather overstating the category IMO. I like clashed coins, and may even pay a bit of a premium for one, but the coin itself has to speak to me in the first place.

Unknown · February 18, 2012 2:44AM

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tydye · February 18, 2012 2:48AM

I love clashes. One of the reasons I love 1814 CBH so much

keyman64 · February 18, 2012 3:13AM

Some are really cool and are therefore in huge demand. Some are just a mere distraction to a nice coin. I have seen some really cool Mercury Dimes that have gone for big money....so yes, some are and some are not. I would really like to have a white MS double denomination Merc/Lincoln with great clashing....but it will likely never go up high enough on the priority list for the funds I have available.

ProofArtworkonCircs · February 18, 2012 11:29AM

Only if hugely cool.

EagleEye · February 18, 2012 11:46AM

I also don't rely on every word from major topic of studies (boy does that sound good) of numismatists that also engage in dealing of the same coins that they study especially when valued is added and I might say great value with certain coins that they buy and sell on a daily basis, as opposed to lets say a noted numismatist MrHalfdime who lives and breathes his series, collects them, writes about them but doesn't deal in them.

You mean a coin dealer shouldn't study and write about coins because he can influence their values? I don't think it matters one bit how someone makes their living. The test is whether their writing is objective and honest.

EagleEye · February 18, 2012 12:02PM

There is another class of clashed dies that are interesting, Off-center clashed dies:

Here is a 1868 Two Cent piece with two off-center clashes, and their arc (from the denticles of a different die) is in different directions!

There are examples in the Indian Cent series - in 1880 there is a very big one:

The common wisdom says that these happened in the press, perhaps when a die falls out of the press and gets slammed into the hammer die.
So, the question is, are all off-center clashes on hammer dies?

My theory, and it is only a theory, is that mint workers hit a hardened die into a softened die to see if it was hardened or not. If it made a mark, it wasn't hardened yet. If it did not leave a mark it was hardened and ready for the press.

As for the multi-denominational clashed dies, they exist for other years too - 1864 (two cent/cent), 1870 (Shield nickel/ cent). I think they were unintended and if so, then the events speculated in the book (initially published in Dave Bowers' Indian cent book) is the best possible explanation.

The Multi-Denominational clashed dies are very, very popular and so are the off-center clashed dies. Normal clashed dies, not so much.

Our own Capt. Henway first identified the multi-denominational clashed 1857's, I believe.

Sonorandesertrat · February 18, 2012 12:05PM

Those 1857 coins with multidenominational clash marks are what they are, I don't care how they actually were made at the mint. If they were the results of 'midnight minters,' I can live with that. If there are collectors who find such a possibility objectionable, then I presume that they will also object to a host of historic coins, including 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, a wide variety of patterns (in various metals) produced to satisfy collector desires, modern Sacajewea/quarter mules, etc.

coinman420 · February 18, 2012 12:16PM

Once and for all, should cool clashing be a huge collectible?

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