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Once and for all, should cool clashing be a huge collectible?

RealoneRealone Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
or just for certain types, or just for very dramatic clashing or is clashing just not on the keen eye's radar? I never know which way to think about this subject matter. To be transparent I have collected a couple of cool clashings but then again they may be just cool to a select few or not cool enough to warrant the attention. Most of the time I admit I am not moved by clashing, typically it's just not significant or interesting enough to me. What does everyone here think about this is they think about this that is. image

Comments

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Certain types of clash marks cause coins to be chased after. For example, there are multidenominational die clashes affecting 1857 flying eagle cents (from a Seated quarter obv die, a Seated half obv die, or a Liberty double eagle obv die). Some years ago, Bill Fivaz (I think) found a corresponding Seated quarter with clash marks from a flying eagle cent. Barndog has an amazing 1837 H10C with reverse clash marks that include the full date. And there are others that have a coolness factor.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • I can't imagine any clashing on any issue, no matter how cool, would ever be considered a "huge" collectable.
  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love die clashing, my 3 CN and a few of my dimes & half dimes have clashing. Also got some world coins with them, especially peru.

    I even have ancients with die clashing, which for ancients is fairly common.

    I think they are under appreciated and never got why they werent more popular as well as having a bit of a premium on them.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only clashes that IMO should carry a "huge" premium are the really cool ones that also have some rarity, like the cross denomination clashes in the FE series.

    The other incidental ones can be interesting or distracting but don't/shouldn't carry a huge premium.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    By the way, you know this will NOT be once and for all. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To me, clashing is a negative.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coins struck from clashed dies are interesting and just plain neat.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • I think it ultimately depends on what brings satisfaction to a given collector. No thread or mass of people can effectively dictate or speculate about the importance or value of die clashed coins to other collectors. Me? I appreciate them because they give a window into what the minting processes and environment were like at the time. There's just so much other stuff in numismatics I'm interested in that i don't have the resources to devote to the clashes.
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    I find clashing distracting in most circumstances -- but maybe that's just me.
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think you will ever get everybody on the same page of anything.image

    if you like it..... collect it....if not......don't.image
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    I like die clashes and glad that they dont attract any real $$$ premium. What
    is wrong with haveing something cool to collect and not having to pay extra for?
    I say nothing!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Borrowed from EERC's wiki - how can you NOT find this clash interesting?? I would pay a huge premium for one. image

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I answer every thread with the word "should" in the title the same way...

    "It Depends"

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Clashing alone doesn't send me. But when it's on a beautiful coin...like a colorful LDS, I think it adds value.
    Lance.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I can't imagine any clashing on any issue, no matter how cool, would ever be considered a "huge" collectable. >>


    This.

    I consider clashed coins to be errors...and I'm not a big fan of them.
  • I love die clashing and die cracks. I see lots of die clashing on three cent silver coins
    and other small silver coins, like the half dime I obtained recently on Teletrade. I also
    see die clashing on lots of older world coins. Got a few Netherlands 1/2 cents from
    the 1880's and 1890's with clashing of the horizontal lines behind the lion.

    I see lots of die cracks on all kinds of nickel coins, but especially shield nickels,
    probably three cent nickel coins after that.

    I've entertained the thought of putting together a type set consisting entirely of
    coins that have die clashing or die cracks. I'm already trying to restrict my type
    set upgrades to coins that have clashing when possible.

    I don't hope to see clashing carry a huge premium, though, because that would
    make them harder for me to find and more expensive to buy.

    Mark
    The Secret Of Success Law:
    Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
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  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes-I think that PCGS should start a clash registry category. image Which would thereby cause a big increase in clash coin values.
    image


  • << <i>Borrowed from EERC's wiki - how can you NOT find this clash interesting?? I would pay a huge premium for one. image

    image >>



    I do find it interesting, but is there any logical explanation for how this happened other than someone in the mint just trying to make something unusual?
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it can be a charming relic of old minting methods but nothing more than a side show. As an analogy, I would not pay extra to hear so-and-so sing the national anthem at the baseball or football game.
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    To each their own. No matter how you look at it, and no matter what is proved or disproved about the 1936-S possible overdate dime some will agree, and some won't. It is really that simple. (That is what this thread is really about anyway.)

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,769 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think it can be a charming relic of old minting methods........ >>



    Clashed dies still occur on modern coins using modern minting equipment.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aren't many VAM varieties a result of clashed dies? I don't collect them but many Morgan dollar enthusiasts search out these silver dollar VAM varieties.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire



  • << <i>

    << <i>Borrowed from EERC's wiki - how can you NOT find this clash interesting?? I would pay a huge premium for one. image
    >>



    I do find it interesting, but is there any logical explanation for how this happened other than someone in the mint just trying to make something unusual? >>



    Yes. Originally it was thought it was the fun work of a "midnight minter". However, more in-depth studies have shown that these clashes are the artifacts that occurred when they were changing denominations on the press.

    From The Official Red Book: Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cents by Richard Snow (great book btw):
    "These were caused by accident during the changing of dies during normal coinage production. In the course of changing the dies from one denomination to another, the collar would have to be removed as well as the two dies. This would allow the press to actually cycle with two denomination dies. It may have been common practice to cycle the press once to seat the dies in the press."

    Additional info from the aforementioned book:

    --This was a major topic of study by Chris Pilliod. "What Error Coins Can Teach Us About Die Settings" April 1996 of The Numismatist.
    --The Flying Eagle series had its die setting opposite from the 1857 quarter dollar, half dollar, and double eagle dies (i.e. the reverse of the F.E. was on the hammer die as opposed to the obverse of the quarter, half, and double eagle)

    -Jacob
  • Franklin Bugs Bunnys have become really popular in the last few years since PCGS added the Complete Variety Set to the Registry. Prices are coming back down on dates that were once thought to be scarce or rare as more and more examples are certified.

    Like others have said, collect what you like!
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,539 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wide spreads on doubled die specimens are huge collectibles to me. The masses cannot see what the few find huge.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I find them to be interesting anomalies, but of only passing interest. I do not collect them, at least not intentionally. If I were to find one in my collection, it would be an interesting surprise, but only that. I would not buy a coin because it was clashed. Cheers, RickO
  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HUGE is rather overstating the category IMO. I like clashed coins, and may even pay a bit of a premium for one, but the coin itself has to speak to me in the first place.

    image
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  • tydyetydye Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭
    I love clashes. One of the reasons I love 1814 CBH so much

  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some are really cool and are therefore in huge demand. Some are just a mere distraction to a nice coin. I have seen some really cool Mercury Dimes that have gone for big money....so yes, some are and some are not. I would really like to have a white MS double denomination Merc/Lincoln with great clashing....but it will likely never go up high enough on the priority list for the funds I have available.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • Only if hugely cool.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also don't rely on every word from major topic of studies (boy does that sound good) of numismatists that also engage in dealing of the same coins that they study especially when valued is added and I might say great value with certain coins that they buy and sell on a daily basis, as opposed to lets say a noted numismatist MrHalfdime who lives and breathes his series, collects them, writes about them but doesn't deal in them.

    You mean a coin dealer shouldn't study and write about coins because he can influence their values? I don't think it matters one bit how someone makes their living. The test is whether their writing is objective and honest.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is another class of clashed dies that are interesting, Off-center clashed dies:

    Here is a 1868 Two Cent piece with two off-center clashes, and their arc (from the denticles of a different die) is in different directions!

    image
    image

    There are examples in the Indian Cent series - in 1880 there is a very big one:

    image

    The common wisdom says that these happened in the press, perhaps when a die falls out of the press and gets slammed into the hammer die.
    So, the question is, are all off-center clashes on hammer dies?

    My theory, and it is only a theory, is that mint workers hit a hardened die into a softened die to see if it was hardened or not. If it made a mark, it wasn't hardened yet. If it did not leave a mark it was hardened and ready for the press.

    As for the multi-denominational clashed dies, they exist for other years too - 1864 (two cent/cent), 1870 (Shield nickel/ cent). I think they were unintended and if so, then the events speculated in the book (initially published in Dave Bowers' Indian cent book) is the best possible explanation.

    The Multi-Denominational clashed dies are very, very popular and so are the off-center clashed dies. Normal clashed dies, not so much.

    Our own Capt. Henway first identified the multi-denominational clashed 1857's, I believe.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those 1857 coins with multidenominational clash marks are what they are, I don't care how they actually were made at the mint. If they were the results of 'midnight minters,' I can live with that. If there are collectors who find such a possibility objectionable, then I presume that they will also object to a host of historic coins, including 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, a wide variety of patterns (in various metals) produced to satisfy collector desires, modern Sacajewea/quarter mules, etc.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • image
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    my ebay items BST transactions/swaps/giveaways with: Tiny, raycyca,mrpaseo, Dollar2007,Whatafind, Boom, packers88, DBSTrader2, 19Lyds, Mar327, pontiacinf, ElmerFusterpuck.

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