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B&M Debate About ICG
erwindoc
Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭✭✭
Out of town this weekend and visited a coin store while I was there. The dealer was a very pleasant gentleman. There was only one other customer in the store at the time so we got into a discussion about TPG. He commented that he preferred ICG and gave various reasons as to why. In fact, most of the certified coins in his shelves were ICG. Has their reputation gotten better recently?? Who owns the company now?
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I knew it would happen.
Your encounter reminded me of this quote as it pertains to a gentleman and a TPG :
Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.
~John Wooden~
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
My local B&M dealer uses nothing but ICG. He sells primarily on ebay so it works out great for him as folks pay good for the types of coins he sells that are ICG graded (MS69/70 SAE's, MS Frankies, MS Wash Quarters).
The cost to grade an MS69 SAE is $7-$8 and $9-$10 for a MS70 if you specify a grade limit. Doesn't cost anything if they don't meet 69 or 70.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Like NGC I imagine that a lot of their properly graded coins get crossed over, and the less than perfect ones stay in ICG holders. The problem is their grading is a bit looser than NGC and PCGS and that consigns them to “second tier” status.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Au 58 is an accurate grade. It was an error on the former grading, not the latter.
Some other ICG - I have NOT liked many that I have seen. I have seen some morgans that are graded accurately, but other than morgans, I just shudder.
That said, I have 1 morgan still in ICG and a couple years of SHQs in ICG that are "PR70". I keep them like that because they are nice and I also know that PCGS won't cross a "70" graded coin.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Look at a given coin at ebay you will find most of the time the PCGS coin is the one that sells for the most dollars and are far more in demand.
Buy inexpensive coins for sets no down side. Be very selective otherwise is my suggestion.
I think Bill nailed it.
Lance.
<< <i>I haven't handled too many of their coins, but a lot of the circulated stuff seems okay, with accuracy dropping as the grades get higher (moderns are a different animal). That said, I have one ICG coin in my collection, and it's fantastic and accurately graded. I think I got a good deal on it because the holder scared some people away... >>
I'll agree with this assessment. It becomes a question of "knowing" what you are buying before you buy it!
I'm sure the TPG Slab scared off the bidders on this one:
While PCGS would not award the MS65 grade, it's definitely not less than an XF40 which is what I paid for the coin. Of course, the sellers bad pictures certainly didn't help although they did show good strong luster which is "key" to these Type 2 IKEs.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The cost to grade an MS69 SAE is $7-$8 and $9-$10 for a MS70 if you specify a grade limit. Doesn't cost anything if they don't meet 69 or 70. >>
In my view, this is a very poor business model for the collector. It incentivizes ICG to give coins artificially high grades because otherwise they don't get paid. Artificially high grades, of course, ruin the reputation of all coins in ICG slabs.
The NGC model is to charge lower prices and generally give out less conservative grades. It keeps them going, but it does not allow them to penetrate what has become a glass ceiling
Question that you may not know the answer to, but I figured I would ask anyway....
Is the B&M trying to sell the ICG graded coins at PCGS/NGC prices? Are they paying "fair" prices for buying ICG graded coins or do they knock them down more than same labels from PCGS?
If they actually sell them for the higher prices and buy for really low prices, then it is no wonder they prefer them
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I will only purchase inexpensive coins in ICG unless I can see the coin in hand and agree with the grade and even then I'd still have to think hard about the purchase. >>
...i think this could be said about any TPG.
said that they are the same as raw. !
<< <i>I tried to sell some ICG coins not too long ago, and every dealer i showed them to
said that they are the same as raw. ! >>
I wonder if they would say the same if they are selling them.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
buffnixx
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
In regards ICG is looking for market share, it needs bulk submitters to gain in the market. Note their silver dollar special for january.
IMO other than modern dudu their grading is fairly well. In AU/MS ranges on peace, morgans and WLH I find theyre grade conservatively. There are good deals to be found in ICG slabs.
Will they take over and become top dog? Harsly unlikely, but they could gain a better reputation at the expense of other TPG's.
I don't buy it. When I see major collections being sold in ICG holders, I could change my mind. Of course, donkeys might grow wings and fly, too.
There is no "debate". They are lower tier, and no serious collector I know would be caught dead with a coin in an ICG holder.
<< <i>
I don't buy it. When I see major collections being sold in ICG holders, I could change my mind. Of course, donkeys might grow wings and fly, too.
There is no "debate". They are lower tier, and no serious collector I know would be caught dead with a coin in an ICG holder.
Whenever I see a $500 (and up) coin in a recent ICG or ANACS or..(insert third-fourth-tier service), I immediately wonder why, even before actually looking at the coin.
Being a pragmatist (i.e., recognizing that every service is imperfect), I wouldn't even consider sending a coin to a non-top-tier grading service for the simple reason that
there is NO value to doing so and this is a widely held opinion in the numismatic marketplace. Any lower-tier grading service has an enormous hurdle to overcome at this point.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I once purchased an MS68 1938-D buffalo nickel in an ICG slab. And this coin was really an MS68, it was all there. I only had to pay $500 for it from David Lawrence. That puppy would have been north of ten grand in a pcgs holder. And believe me this coin was truly an MS68. An astounding coin and graded correctly. I put it in a Heritage Rare Coin Galleries auction and it brought $1000.00. Like a tenth of the pcgs price and a fifth of the ngc price. So, though graded correctly and a beautiful coin, it was in the wrong plastic. At this point it time I would avoid slabbing with ICG.
buffnixx >>
It's interesting how you; the original submitter, nor David Lawrence took a $30. submission gamble to gain several thousand dollars on a successful cross or crack-out.
Especially Mr. Lawrence who has a tremendous eye for such opportunities.
That is more telling than any praising of ICG.
peacockcoins
<< <i>wow, the coin, er, plastic snobbery is in full effect today. >>
Indeed. And most 'plastic snobbery is well founded. All you have to do is look at enough slabbed coins to notice grading patterns.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>wow, the coin, er, plastic snobbery is in full effect today. >>
Indeed. And most 'plastic snobbery is well founded. All you have to do is look at enough slabbed coins to notice grading patterns. >>
It would be snobbery if coins were randomly assigned to slabs. The fact is that people choose to put coins in slabs and choose not to put high-end coins in ICG slabs and for good reason.
<< <i>If they actually sell them for the higher prices and buy for really low prices, then it is no wonder they prefer them
My thoughts exactly; an old business model that others have (and do) follow using even lower-tier holder companies.
<< <i>wow, the coin, er, plastic snobbery is in full effect today. >>
Yup. Pass the Koolaid.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
There is no "debate". They are lower tier, and no serious collector I know would be caught dead with a coin in an ICG holder.
If the price is right I am happy to add an IGC coin to my collection even if it is only a matter of time until it makes it way in to different plastic. I always wanted one of these but didn't want to commit any real money to a series I didn't collect. This fit the bill well and it is nicer than the 2 AG3 PCGS coins I have seen and priced about 33% lower too !
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>Try selling classic ICG graded coins at any large coin show. See how many realistic offers you get. You will then have your answer. >>
Well, that is because everyone is drinking Koolaid except the two people who are stuck with the coins.
I trust ICG as far as authentication , and spotting major problems; and I believe there are some good deals to be had in their holders.