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Exceptional Civil War love token on 1863 Indian cent (fascinating freebie from a forum friend!)
lordmarcovan
Posts: 43,215 ✭✭✭✭✭
I got this PM from Andrew, aka "Ahrensdad", on January 18th. We've chatted, but never done business on the forums, to my recollection.
<< <i>Rob,
I bought a coin in a large deal that just has your name all over it. It looks like a love token where the host coin is an Indian cent. But it doesn't really look like a love token I've seen before. Not quite as ornate but interesting. If you'd be willing to give me your mailing address, I'd like to give you the coin.
Andrew >>
I responded.
<< <i>Andrew- thanks!
I really only collect Seated dime love tokens, but if there is a hole in the IHC token I could put it on my vest, I suppose.
My snailmail address is:
(... blah blah blah...)
If you need me to send you some money for shipping, let me know. >>
So I wandered off from the Internet and coins and the forums for a little while, completely forgetting about Andrew's kind offer.
Some bubble mailer packages arrived in the mail but I set them aside on the desk, leaving them unopened until I returned to numismatic mode. I knew there must be coins inside but I couldn't figure out what they would be, as I had thought I was up to date with all my newps.
Yesterday I logged on to catch up on my PMs and see what was happening on the forums. Since I was stepping back into coin mode, it was time to open the packages. One was a last-minute purchase I'd semi-forgotten about.
The other was intriguing and a bit baffling at first.
The first coin to come out of the package was a holed Mexico City colonial half-real piece. Though one hole went through the date, leaving just the first and last digits ("1__8"), I'm guessing it's an 1808, since the ruler is Ferdinand VII. People send me holeys occasionally. I've had plenty of Spanish Colonial silver, and lots of half-reals, as they were very commonly holed. I don't really need this one for the Holey Coin Vest collection, but would YOU turn your nose up at free 200-year-old silver? Nah- I didn't think so. It always puts a smile on my face.
When the next coin came out of the wrapping, I remembered Andrew's offer, and realized it must be the Indian cent love token he had mentioned. But I was momentarily stumped why he would be sending it, since the piece was unholed and I saw the obverse first. It looked like a nice medium- to high-grade copper-nickel Indian cent; nothing more.
Then I turned it over and saw the engraving.
Wow! A pictorial!
When Andrew offered me a free Indian Head cent love token I was picturing the typical later-date bronze IHC, perhaps with a single crude initial carved on the back, like some of the others I've had. I was willing to give his mystery piece a try since love tokens are far more common on dimes than cents, which is why my date set of them is focused on the Seated (and now Barber) dimes.
But boy, was this a pleasant surprise. Not only was the host coin a copper-nickel, Civil War-dated Indian, but it was in pretty nice shape and the pictorial elements also had a military theme! And let me tell you from eBay experience- love tokens with military engraving are hot!
There are elements of all the service branches from the Civil War-era military. We've got the musket for the Infantry, a Cavalry saber, and crossed cannons with cannonballs for the Artillery. There's also a drum thrown in for good measure.
But the central motif is both puzzling and intriguing. It appears to be an Irish style harp with a seashell-ornamented frame. The artist was skilled but clearly not a professional engraver, which gives this piece some folksy charm. He did a pretty good job. He probably intended the "harp" as the central device, as it is oriented vertically in relation to the obverse of the coin, as I've shown above. But that makes the cannons and cannonballs look a bit strange. (Stood up that way, our pile of cannonballs would fall down.) So in the closeup below, I've oriented it with the "harp" sideways and the cannons at the bottom.
All right, so let's take in our clues.
One, the host coin was struck at the turning point of the Civil War (or the "War Between The States", as they say way down deep in Dixie where I live.) And it remains in relatively high grade, so that should indicate it wasn't carved much later than that.
Two, there are the period military devices on there.
Three, the semi-skilled, folksy style indicates it might have been carved by a soldier, making this a piece of "trench art". And he would have been a Northern soldier, almost certainly. Not too many newly minted coins made their way from Philadelphia down to the South in 1863, I would guess. And a coin-starved Johnny Reb would be less likely to engrave his penny than to save or spend it.
Now we come to the "harp". There were Irish brigades on both sides of the conflict, but particularly in the Union armies.
My theory? This is a piece of trench art carved by a soldier in a Civil War Irish brigade.
Which is all the more fascinating to me, since I believe I read somewhere that my first Shinnick ancestor (my father's surname) immigrated from Ireland in 1863. I doubt he would have carved this coin and I don't know if he served in the war (the family history on my father's side is a bit murkier than on my mother's side). But hey... what fun, right?
Now I have a dilemma. Call it the old "outside the prime focal area" issue. I collect Seated and Barber dime love tokens. Not cents, or dollars, or whatever. If this piece were holed it would fit in my Holey Coin Vest collection, but it isn't. So while I love it, I don't really know what to do with it.
Should I branch out into a whole 19th century love token type set?
Or swap it to one of my exonumia buddies, if they make me an offer I can't refuse, thereby gaining something that does fit my collecting parameters?
Or should I eBay it? I personally believe a piece like this has $100+ eBay potential, to the right person. There's no guarantee there, but since I got it for free, there's no downside risk to a true auction, either. I mentioned all of these possibilities to Andrew, who gave me the piece, and offered to split the eBay proceeds with him if I went that route, but he graciously said no, for me to keep it and do as I please with the token or with the proceeds. What a generous fella, eh?
I'm undecided at the moment. Theoretically this is up for trade if one of my exonumia brethren likes it (and I bet they will), but I'm also rather fond of it, and it tempts me to branch out into a type set instead of sticking to the dimes and holeys exclusively. (I've sort of been kicking that idea around anyway, but man... I've got enough collections going already!)
Whatever I decide, this is a cool piece and I'm enjoying it, and I tip my hat to Andrew for the gift.
<< <i>Rob,
I bought a coin in a large deal that just has your name all over it. It looks like a love token where the host coin is an Indian cent. But it doesn't really look like a love token I've seen before. Not quite as ornate but interesting. If you'd be willing to give me your mailing address, I'd like to give you the coin.
Andrew >>
I responded.
<< <i>Andrew- thanks!
I really only collect Seated dime love tokens, but if there is a hole in the IHC token I could put it on my vest, I suppose.
My snailmail address is:
(... blah blah blah...)
If you need me to send you some money for shipping, let me know. >>
So I wandered off from the Internet and coins and the forums for a little while, completely forgetting about Andrew's kind offer.
Some bubble mailer packages arrived in the mail but I set them aside on the desk, leaving them unopened until I returned to numismatic mode. I knew there must be coins inside but I couldn't figure out what they would be, as I had thought I was up to date with all my newps.
Yesterday I logged on to catch up on my PMs and see what was happening on the forums. Since I was stepping back into coin mode, it was time to open the packages. One was a last-minute purchase I'd semi-forgotten about.
The other was intriguing and a bit baffling at first.
The first coin to come out of the package was a holed Mexico City colonial half-real piece. Though one hole went through the date, leaving just the first and last digits ("1__8"), I'm guessing it's an 1808, since the ruler is Ferdinand VII. People send me holeys occasionally. I've had plenty of Spanish Colonial silver, and lots of half-reals, as they were very commonly holed. I don't really need this one for the Holey Coin Vest collection, but would YOU turn your nose up at free 200-year-old silver? Nah- I didn't think so. It always puts a smile on my face.
When the next coin came out of the wrapping, I remembered Andrew's offer, and realized it must be the Indian cent love token he had mentioned. But I was momentarily stumped why he would be sending it, since the piece was unholed and I saw the obverse first. It looked like a nice medium- to high-grade copper-nickel Indian cent; nothing more.
Then I turned it over and saw the engraving.
Wow! A pictorial!
When Andrew offered me a free Indian Head cent love token I was picturing the typical later-date bronze IHC, perhaps with a single crude initial carved on the back, like some of the others I've had. I was willing to give his mystery piece a try since love tokens are far more common on dimes than cents, which is why my date set of them is focused on the Seated (and now Barber) dimes.
But boy, was this a pleasant surprise. Not only was the host coin a copper-nickel, Civil War-dated Indian, but it was in pretty nice shape and the pictorial elements also had a military theme! And let me tell you from eBay experience- love tokens with military engraving are hot!
There are elements of all the service branches from the Civil War-era military. We've got the musket for the Infantry, a Cavalry saber, and crossed cannons with cannonballs for the Artillery. There's also a drum thrown in for good measure.
But the central motif is both puzzling and intriguing. It appears to be an Irish style harp with a seashell-ornamented frame. The artist was skilled but clearly not a professional engraver, which gives this piece some folksy charm. He did a pretty good job. He probably intended the "harp" as the central device, as it is oriented vertically in relation to the obverse of the coin, as I've shown above. But that makes the cannons and cannonballs look a bit strange. (Stood up that way, our pile of cannonballs would fall down.) So in the closeup below, I've oriented it with the "harp" sideways and the cannons at the bottom.
All right, so let's take in our clues.
One, the host coin was struck at the turning point of the Civil War (or the "War Between The States", as they say way down deep in Dixie where I live.) And it remains in relatively high grade, so that should indicate it wasn't carved much later than that.
Two, there are the period military devices on there.
Three, the semi-skilled, folksy style indicates it might have been carved by a soldier, making this a piece of "trench art". And he would have been a Northern soldier, almost certainly. Not too many newly minted coins made their way from Philadelphia down to the South in 1863, I would guess. And a coin-starved Johnny Reb would be less likely to engrave his penny than to save or spend it.
Now we come to the "harp". There were Irish brigades on both sides of the conflict, but particularly in the Union armies.
My theory? This is a piece of trench art carved by a soldier in a Civil War Irish brigade.
Which is all the more fascinating to me, since I believe I read somewhere that my first Shinnick ancestor (my father's surname) immigrated from Ireland in 1863. I doubt he would have carved this coin and I don't know if he served in the war (the family history on my father's side is a bit murkier than on my mother's side). But hey... what fun, right?
Now I have a dilemma. Call it the old "outside the prime focal area" issue. I collect Seated and Barber dime love tokens. Not cents, or dollars, or whatever. If this piece were holed it would fit in my Holey Coin Vest collection, but it isn't. So while I love it, I don't really know what to do with it.
Should I branch out into a whole 19th century love token type set?
Or swap it to one of my exonumia buddies, if they make me an offer I can't refuse, thereby gaining something that does fit my collecting parameters?
Or should I eBay it? I personally believe a piece like this has $100+ eBay potential, to the right person. There's no guarantee there, but since I got it for free, there's no downside risk to a true auction, either. I mentioned all of these possibilities to Andrew, who gave me the piece, and offered to split the eBay proceeds with him if I went that route, but he graciously said no, for me to keep it and do as I please with the token or with the proceeds. What a generous fella, eh?
I'm undecided at the moment. Theoretically this is up for trade if one of my exonumia brethren likes it (and I bet they will), but I'm also rather fond of it, and it tempts me to branch out into a type set instead of sticking to the dimes and holeys exclusively. (I've sort of been kicking that idea around anyway, but man... I've got enough collections going already!)
Whatever I decide, this is a cool piece and I'm enjoying it, and I tip my hat to Andrew for the gift.
0
Comments
I have never seen anything like that before.
Great coin, probably unique in that motif.
I love this aspect to these coins that were creatively "defaced". Each and every one is unique, and has a story to tell.
Tacky.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
That bridge has since fallen, but was an important part of the Civil War... That "harp" kinda looks like it could be that "Bridge" ?
At any rate, Very Cool...
LM-ANA3242-CSNS308-MSNS226-ICTA
<< <i>Or should I eBay it?
Tacky. >>
Usually that would be, yes. But if I'm to part with it, eBay would be the best venue to maximize the return, and if you read my post, you'll notice that I have already offered to split any proceeds with the donor of the gift, and he graciously declined. IF I do go that route, though, I'd make him that offer again. Even if sold, it will be and has been greatly appreciated as a gift.
But who knows, I might just keep it and branch out. It's pretty darned cool.
<< <i>If I remember correctly, there was a bridge that connected Point Pleasant, West Virginia crossing over the Ohio River to Ohio ...
That bridge has since fallen, but was an important part of the Civil War... That "harp" kinda looks like it could be that "Bridge" ?
At any rate, Very Cool... >>
Yep, "bridge" came to my mind in the first glance, too. One thinks of the bridge at Antietam, though it didn't look like that. But not too many bridges had giant seashell-shaped ornaments on top of 'em. I'm 99.999% convinced that's a harp. The Irish brigades carried the harp flag into battle.
Reminds me of my favorite coin I ever sold off.
If I DO end up selling this one and branch out in my exonumia collection later, there will probably be some seller's remorse.
<< <i>Or should I eBay it?
Tacky. >>
True, but I think the original poster simply forgot to state that he would send most the funds to the person who sent the coin or to his favorite charity
>>>. So while I love it, I don't really know what to do with it.
Does it really have to 'fit' in order to be a keeper? I seems there's a general sentiment on this board of continually narrowing your focus, getting down to a box of twenty, etc., but when someone gifts something so special and relevant to your collection (and a 1 in 100 million chance your distant relative could have even carved it) why not keep it forever? Regardless of what you do with the coin, thanks for taking the time to share the story and post the pics. It's always encouraging to hear stories of friends helping friends
Edit- oh, hey... I'm wondering if what I see as a "seashell-shaped ornament" on the "harp" is actually a US flag furled behind it?
That would make more sense with the whole military theme. But ... nah... it doesn't really look like a flag. It looks like a part of the harp, and dang sure looks like a seashell to me. Any ideas?
Not sure if you posted it there, but this might have some interest on the
World Coins forum.
I'll send you a PM.
Thanks,
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
Trying to figure out these puzzles is a big part of the fun.
Thanks,
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
<< <i>Trying to figure out these puzzles is a big part of the fun. >>
A HUGE part of the fun. I always love an intriguing numismatic riddle. And this one rates really high on the historical intrigue scale.
Family: Harpidae. Some of the most handsome shells, Harp Shells feature a variegated pattern of pinks and purplish reds on a shiny globose shell. The raised axial ribs are suggestive of the strings of a harp, giving the group its name.
link
<< <i>Alliteration attempts are always awesome. >>
Why, thankee, sir. I edited my original title to do that.
<< <i>I think the carver is cleverly depicting a - Harp Shell
Family: Harpidae. Some of the most handsome shells, Harp Shells feature a variegated pattern of pinks and purplish reds on a shiny globose shell. The raised axial ribs are suggestive of the strings of a harp, giving the group its name. >>
Interesting angle! I didn't know that! Thanks! Could be? A visual pun, perhaps?
If it is a harp, the strings are going in the wrong direction? Should be up and down? Just a thought.
I did a little googling and it looks like it might be a Maid of Erin harp. The 69th Pennsylvania Infantry Used to carry it on their flag into battle. You can see it on the top of their monument at Gettysburg.
<< <i>I'd just keep it. It's too cool to sell. >>
Way too cool to sell.
Anyway, there are two lines etched, I think deliberate, one from the top of the harp to the cannon barrel, the other line arcing and seperating the cannon + balls from the rest of the carving. Don't know why one would do that if this is your magnum opus.
Then again, I don't know why someone would would carve a harp shell mollusk hieroglyphic on a civil war coin, either.
I think the harp is correct and I like the 69th Penn Regiment theory.
The prominence of the incongruent seashell relative to the harp surrounded by the tools of the civil war is odd.
It's a Paul Harvey "And now, the REST of the story".
I also think the arcing line between the cannon and the rest of the coin might depict the base of a hill.
And I still think the work around the rim is pretty cool, too.
I got two offers out of the blue, but decided no, this should be a keeper.
So I began drafting out the shell of a 19th century "counterstamp-and-engraved coin" type set.
About 3/4 of the way through that, I got a third PM offer.
It made me drop what I was doing, do an about-face, and now I have agreed to trade away this piece. It was, as they say, an offer I couldn't refuse.
I will miss this coin, and I do not trade it away now without a tiny bit of seller's remorse.
However, the trade offered is easily twice what my wildest eBay wishes would have been. And it is going to somebody who is gonna really cherish it, even more than I would have. It is a cool piece but now I will have something to flip and turn into a lot MORE cool stuff.
Ironically, I am trading away this unique historical item for something modern and generic, believe it or not. But something handsome and high grade, with a decent demand and a sizeable amount of bullion. I think it is a no-lose proposition and should be a very easy flip. That takes a lot of the sting out. And I know the person who is getting this piece really loves it and wants it. So it's all good in the end. Win-win.
And sorry for inadvertently spamming up the place, y'all. I should perhaps have not gone thinking out loud and mentioning eBay and all that. Rather crass of me, maybe.
Ahrensdad- I owe you one, man. Bigtime. This was a terrific gift, and as you can see, I've had a blast owning it, even if for only a short while. And discussing it here has been a gas, too. I'm sure the new owner has enjoyed the discussion so far.
engraved unto a dime.
Hardly ever see these made from Indian heads.
Steve
The trouble with a ravioli carved onto a coin is, it would be difficult to tell if it was really a ravioli, or just a pillow.
I like both, though. Ravioli and pillows. Both very nice things.
The "light bulb" lookin' thingie at the bottom is a mace. Funny, I always thought of those more as a medieval weapon.
I'm gonna invite DUIGUY to show off his truly amazing Napoleonic-era pieces, which are far more sophisticated.
Here is my "core" love token set, again, for those of you who haven't seen it lately.
I've really gotten the fever for this stuff, crazy though it might seem to some of you. I've had a blast with love tokens, and happily, they fit my budget quite nicely.
The coin in the OP really, really tempted me to branch out, and I might... one day. When I do, I'll think of that piece. I'll never own it again, though, because its new owner says it's his 'til death do they part. Which makes me happy, that he's so happy to be getting it.
I'm very glad it's going where it will be appreciated.
Simply send Ahrensdad whatever coin now resides at the top of the list, post a pic of the IHC token for posterity, and see what kinda offers you get for whatever this mysterious new newp may be ?
Just an idea....
The coin here (in the OP) has already been traded away, but I could retroactively make it part of the Paperclip project, then take the item I'll be getting for it and put THAT into the Paperclip game.
I guess I'll need to run a quick poll over there to make sure everyone approves of this.
For those who are wondering whatinhell I am talkin' about when I mention the Paperclip project, I am referring to this.
I think it's a great idea, since when I send the current "paperclip" coin to Ahrensdad, he gets a little something in return (though he's said that isn't necessary). That way, he'll also be included in the year-end lottery to split all the Paperclip proceeds with me (all of my trading partners in the game get an entry in the drawing for that), and I'll get to advance the Paperclip project a bit, since it had momentarily slowed down. But I'll abide by whatever the poll says after it's run for at least a day or so.
Edit: nah. Maybe I won't make this swap part of the Paperclip project, after all. It stands alone nicely, though.
Or maybe I will, if the poll goes well. We'll see.
(I still owe you one, Ahrensdad.)
<< <i>I'm gonna invite DUIGUY to show off his truly amazing Napoleonic-era pieces, which are far more sophisticated. >>
Thanks Rob. Truly Love The 1863 Pictorial! Here are the pieces you reffered to.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Ron
<< <i>That is a really great gift!
I did a little googling and it looks like it might be a Maid of Erin harp. The 69th Pennsylvania Infantry Used to carry it on their flag into battle. You can see it on the top of their monument at Gettysburg.
>>
I am thinking along the same lines, although there were several Irish Regiments from NY and Boston.
This was a really neat piece.
taylor
I am a YN and I do not want anybody to question my IQ Level! I don't know everything and came here to learn!