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Laura is right AND wrong
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,197 ✭✭✭✭✭
1) Laura is right that coins with issues hurt the values of coins that are high end. I recently bought a non CAC'd ms66 1799 dollar for $260k - or what i perceive to be a fair price for a CAC'd ms65 of the date. IF a stickered ms66 were to appear, I guarantee it would go for more - but the non CAC price would be the only available reference point and thus drag the price down. The ms66 price realized also hurts the price of top end ms65's.
2) Laura is wrong that coins with issues that prevent them from stickering can't be good buys. I happen to know that the dollar will sticker as a 65 or 65+, so when I'm good and ready I'll do that. As long as you have the expertise to get good coins at the right price, you can worry about the holder later.
3) Laura is right that if I filled my collection with coins with grade issues like this, that the collection would lose respect. I'd much rather put the coin in the right holder and know it's PQ.
2) Laura is wrong that coins with issues that prevent them from stickering can't be good buys. I happen to know that the dollar will sticker as a 65 or 65+, so when I'm good and ready I'll do that. As long as you have the expertise to get good coins at the right price, you can worry about the holder later.
3) Laura is right that if I filled my collection with coins with grade issues like this, that the collection would lose respect. I'd much rather put the coin in the right holder and know it's PQ.
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EAC 6024
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>My goal is to get all my coins into holders two points lower than the current grades, get them all stickered gold, and have the most PQ collection on earth >>
In my eyes, that would be one cooool collection. A set of rattlers with gold stickers? Mmmmmmmm!
EAC 6024
<< <i>Of course there is a difference between "issues/problems" and slightly overgraded. The overgraded can still be a great coin in the right holder but the "problem" coin will never be. >>
Exactly. Thats where the expertise comes in. Most would be better off not to take this route without a skilled advisor.
<< <i>My goal is to get all my coins into holders two points lower than the current grades, get them all stickered gold, and have the most PQ collection on earth >>
Your goal is cool but not unique. There are several people that are attempting the same currently. Gold beans are VERY much in demand
<< <i>My goal is to get all my coins into holders two points lower than the current grades, get them all stickered gold, and have the most PQ collection on earth >>
Now that is funny!!!
One coin was an 1875-CC double eagle in a PCGS XF-45 OGH which was a nice crusty coin with PL fields, I knew the coin would CAC in that holder the problem was I graded the coin an AU-53 and NGC agreed as that is the grade it came back as so now it sits in a holder with the correct grade.
The other coin was a 1911 gold eagle, I purchased this coin a couple months ago at the Red River Valley coin show raw as a slider.
I looked over the coin carefully before purchasing and noticed how clean the reverse was with virtually no marks, the obverse had only a few small ticks not visible to the naked eye and even under 4 power magnification you could barely make them out so I thought this coin will grade 62 on the very low end and 64 on the very high end. The dealer pulls out someone elses coins and shows me before getting my coins in the safe there was a 1926 gold eagle with quite a few ticks front and back which NGC slabbed a 63 so I was excited thinking they must've slabbed mine a 64. Well I first see the 75-CC slab then the Indian came and it was in a 61 holder, needless to say I was shocked but hey maybe I should send it to cac and get a sticker on it.
<< <i>Here's an interesting exercise: Remove Laura and CAC from your three statements and see what happens. >>
Fewer people clicking on the thread?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>My goal is to get all my coins into holders two points lower than the current grades, get them all stickered gold, and have the most PQ collection on earth >>
Have you tried Beano? It's in the Pharmacy section of your local drugstore...
<< <i>Getting back to the original post, I would love to see his MS-66 bust dollar even if it doesn't have a little green or gold sticker on it.
I think it's the one posted and discussed in this thread.
Laura is wrong that coins with issues that prevent them from stickering can't be good buys.
With respect to any specific coin, Laura may indeed be wrong. But in general, she is right. Coins that are not solid for the grade are rarely solid long-term value at the current price.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's an interesting exercise: Remove Laura and CAC from your three statements and see what happens. >>
Fewer people clicking on the thread?
That may be one consequence, but it really wasn't what I had in mind.
I’ll substitute “high end” for CAC to paraphrase what I believe was TDN’s implied meaning.
1) Right: Coins with issues hurt the values of coins that are high end. I recently bought a non-high end ms66 1799 dollar for $260k - or what i perceive to be a fair price for a high end ms65 of the date. IF a high end ms66 were to appear, I guarantee it would go for more - but the non-high end price would be the only available reference point and thus drag the price down. The ms66 price realized also hurts the price of top end ms65's.
2) Wrong: Coins with issues that prevent them from being considered high end can't be good buys. I happen to know that the dollar would be high end as a 65 or 65+, so when I'm good and ready I'll do that. As long as you have the expertise to get good coins at the right price, you can worry about the holder later.
3) Right: If I filled my collection with coins with grade issues like this, the collection would lose respect. I'd much rather put the coin in the right holder and know its PQ.
Point one is misleading. Whether or not a coin is high end for the grade is purely subjective. Also, the fact that the non-high end 66 would serve as the only available reference point only applies to price guides and would provide only a ball park figure for the value of that date/mint mark/grade. However, exceptional coins frequently bring strong prices regardless of what the guides say.
Point two needs the strong caveat that it really depends on what issues a particular coin has. Besides, practically anything can be considered a good buy at the right price.
Point three is too broad a statement. Even if a coin was put into the right holder, the issues it has may cause it to be viewed as a problem coin that detracts from the rest of the collection.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Some additional comments should be made here as these are exceptions to basically general rules
1.Some extremely old slabs such as an inexpensive but larger sized coin such as a MS65 later date walker doused in a "ice skating rink" pool of blue green PVC inside a black NGC slab is worth more left alone than eliminating the "issues" on the coin and putting it in a fresh anew holder.
2.Most gold coins "with issues" such as PVC and even some puttying can be rehabilitated to possible solid for the grade or even PQ status without any invasive procedure.. So if you see a gold coin with PVC in a conservative grade, it is more likely than not a very good buy.
This is possible since gold is unaffected by PVC and sometimes the puttying may have hidden a non critical area of the coin.
3. any older NGC slabbed coins can sometimes be rendered non stickerable because they lack flash and luster BUT WHEN they cross to PCGS at the SAME grade they suddenly are stickerable. Why? The plastic shell on the PCGS slab is much thinner than the old NGC slabs. therefore when the coin reappears in the PCGS slab , it looks so much more vibrant than on the old NGC slab. I have seen this time and time again.
4. A woman is never wrong is an old adage that I not dare disagree with my wife right next to me.
4. I am sure I can add as exceptions to the general rules but the AFC Championship football game awaits me!
How long before things go full circle and we go back to coins in Capital holders and the seller quotes you his version of the grade and a price, and you go from there?
I could put my kids lunch money in old black slab holders with doily inserts covered in gold stickers and make a fortune. Well, at least I could if you could still buy lunch with coins. Ridiculous. The market pendulum regarding the bean frenzy will hopefully swing back to reasonability at some point.
<<< to all of this, but it's all just nuts >>>
1) If you're into moderns or bullion, the coin hardly matters really. For everything else, the coin matters almost as much as the politically correct holder and sticker.
2) It's really no more 'nuts' than any other hobby where both corporations and greed have completely taken over and slowly manipulated the course of events to their financial benefit.
2. Agree - the real trick is getting them for the right price. Not knowing the right price, but convincing the seller it is the right price then closing the deal.
3. The collection would lose respect?? Are you collecting for the accolades or for personal satisfaction?
<< <i>1. Nothing new there - you could say the same over the years about EERC stickers vs non-stickered coins, etc.
2. Agree - the real trick is getting them for the right price. Not knowing the right price, but convincing the seller it is the right price then closing the deal.
3. The collection would lose respect?? Are you collecting for the accolades or for personal satisfaction?
Both. There's nothing wrong with a little acknowlegment of having done great things.
Edit: Disregarding problem coins.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>All coins are solid for some grade. Buy them at the corresponding price.
Edit: Disregarding problem coins. >>
Well put.
For me, buying a coin in the wrong holder is a rare occurrence (and normally only occurs when the coin in question is really "special"). The criteria that I use in deciding whether or not the purchase makes sense: whether or not I believe that I can get the coin in the "right" holder and whether or not the coin's price is reasonable (at the accurate grade). As to the beans, I have nothing against them, but so far I've not been tempted to send in any of my coins. In fact, I think there is a certain mystique to an old-time collection that has not made the trip to New Jersey.
No joke and Id never thought I would ever say that.
She does have 'YOUR" best interest at heart when telling you so.
Deals in that range should not be based on a per say, wow I cant say this nice, a pissing contest?
Im prob wrong in wording but I think you might know where I am coming from Bruce, just a thought.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>1) Laura is right that coins with issues hurt the values of coins that are high end. I recently bought a non CAC'd ms66 1799 dollar for $260k - or what i perceive to be a fair price for a CAC'd ms65 of the date. IF a stickered ms66 were to appear, I guarantee it would go for more - but the non CAC price would be the only available reference point and thus drag the price down. The ms66 price realized also hurts the price of top end ms65's.
2) Laura is wrong that coins with issues that prevent them from stickering can't be good buys. I happen to know that the dollar will sticker as a 65 or 65+, so when I'm good and ready I'll do that. As long as you have the expertise to get good coins at the right price, you can worry about the holder later.
3) Laura is right that if I filled my collection with coins with grade issues like this, that the collection would lose respect. I'd much rather put the coin in the right holder and know it's PQ. >>
I would have to agree with the general logic, but how does one "know" for certain that a non-CAC MS66 would actually sticker if re-graded MS65? What if it's only "solid" or "premium" for the MS64 grade? (Over the years I have seen a number of coins that were two points or more overgraded. I suspect that both you and Laura have as well.)
<< <i>
<< <i>1) Laura is right that coins with issues hurt the values of coins that are high end. I recently bought a non CAC'd ms66 1799 dollar for $260k - or what i perceive to be a fair price for a CAC'd ms65 of the date. IF a stickered ms66 were to appear, I guarantee it would go for more - but the non CAC price would be the only available reference point and thus drag the price down. The ms66 price realized also hurts the price of top end ms65's.
2) Laura is wrong that coins with issues that prevent them from stickering can't be good buys. I happen to know that the dollar will sticker as a 65 or 65+, so when I'm good and ready I'll do that. As long as you have the expertise to get good coins at the right price, you can worry about the holder later.
3) Laura is right that if I filled my collection with coins with grade issues like this, that the collection would lose respect. I'd much rather put the coin in the right holder and know it's PQ. >>
I would have to agree with the general logic, but how does one "know" for certain that a non-CAC MS66 would actually sticker if re-graded MS65? What if it's only "solid" or "premium" for the MS64 grade? (Over the years I have seen a number of coins that were two points or more overgraded. I suspect that both you and Laura have as well.) >>
Because of a past conversation with JA where he called it a gem, but only a 65 because of the fingerprint. :-D
<< <i>3) Laura is right that if I filled my collection with coins with grade issues like this, that the collection would lose respect. I'd much rather put the coin in the right holder and know it's PQ. >>
Sad that a collection loses "respect" because it is not in the right plastic. I really thought the actual coins were the most important part of the collection.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Look, I'm a relative nooB to all of this, but it's all just nuts. It seems like the market values a high-end 65 with bean more than a low-for-grade 66. Assuming they're both graded correctly isn't the low end 66 a nicer coin? Assuming you can recognize it as a 66c and pay 66c money for it, why not appreciate it for what it is? What are we collecting? Stickers, slabs, or coins? I'll admit that watching the thread titles here sometimes it's hard to tell.
I could put my kids lunch money in old black slab holders with doily inserts covered in gold stickers and make a fortune. Well, at least I could if you could still buy lunch with coins. Ridiculous. The market pendulum regarding the bean frenzy will hopefully swing back to reasonability at some point. >>
.
I think Bryce has hit the nail on the head. Given that a coin has been correctly graded, the 66 is more valuable that a PQ 65+ CAC stickered coin by virtue of definitions. I can't possibly think Laura thinks otherwise.
There are some very solid for the grade stickered NGC coins with decent eye appeal that just won't cross....period...for whatever reason. Those coins often fetch the same money
or less than the next grade down PCGS + grade. Happened to me a couple of times now on MS 65-67 Seated type coins. The only way to rectify the situation is to crack the coin
and hope you didn't miss something and then can't even get it back in the orig NGC grade. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Look, I'm a relative nooB to all of this, but it's all just nuts. It seems like the market values a high-end 65 with bean more than a low-for-grade 66. Assuming they're both graded correctly isn't the low end 66 a nicer coin? Assuming you can recognize it as a 66c and pay 66c money for it, why not appreciate it for what it is? What are we collecting? Stickers, slabs, or coins? I'll admit that watching the thread titles here sometimes it's hard to tell.
I could put my kids lunch money in old black slab holders with doily inserts covered in gold stickers and make a fortune. Well, at least I could if you could still buy lunch with coins. Ridiculous. The market pendulum regarding the bean frenzy will hopefully swing back to reasonability at some point. >>
.
I think Bryce has hit the nail on the head. Given that a coin has been correctly graded, the 66 is more valuable that a PQ 65+ CAC stickered coin by virtue of definitions. I can't possibly think Laura thinks otherwise. >>
Define correctly graded? Almost all early coins are net graded for something - many of those things will prevent a CAC sticker. I would absolutely pay more for a fresh, original, unmessed with 65+ CAC than a messed with, net graded 66 that wont sticker. Even if the 66 grade is within reason.
LET'S DIP THAT SUCKER!!!
It is the same coin-- the 65+ with green sticker, and I get that coin in
a PCGS 66 holder, as it was on the line. But JA says, correctly, that he
cannot sticker it now-- it is low end for grade.
Would you still want the 66, and at what increase in price, if any, over
the 65+ with sticker.
It is no longer high end for grade, and Laura will not offer it for
sale on Legend's site.
Don't tell me you would downgrade it back to 65+!!!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The same coin is awful dreck in a 67 holder, barely ok in a 66 holder, great in a 65 holder with a plus and a green sticker, and wildly exceptionally PQ in a 64 holder with a plus, a star, a gold sticker (for maximum PQ, it should also have a smiley face sticker.) >>
And in every case it's the same coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Would that be the same??
What about the market demand?
this is a fascinating subject, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I'm just saying that at some point the market as a whole will wake up and see beans for what they are. According to CAC's own website it simply means a coin is not weak for grade, or in other words an A or B coin. It does not imply the coin is somehow superior to another appropriately graded coin in the same holder. I will concede that there might be additional useful information when it pertains to gold coins.
At the end of the day, it's hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation regarading a subjective opinion made about a subjective grade on a coin sold in a world subject to market whims. The key is to buy right and sell right. I know from objective data that I am a solid rank amateur in this department.
<< <i>Okay Bruce, let's see how important the sticker is.
It is the same coin-- the 65+ with green sticker, and I get that coin in
a PCGS 66 holder, as it was on the line. But JA says, correctly, that he
cannot sticker it now-- it is low end for grade.
Would you still want the 66, and at what increase in price, if any, over
the 65+ with sticker.
It is no longer high end for grade, and Laura will not offer it for
sale on Legend's site.
Don't tell me you would downgrade it back to 65+!!! >>
Think about it Laura makes money convincing people that a coin is under graded. Almost every coin on here website is 20% - 30% over the market price for that coin. She only buys these coins because she can buy them at or below market prices and make a higher return than the average dealer convincing people that the coin is really the next grade higher. The green sticker plays into this.
<< <i>
<< <i>Okay Bruce, let's see how important the sticker is.
It is the same coin-- the 65+ with green sticker, and I get that coin in
a PCGS 66 holder, as it was on the line. But JA says, correctly, that he
cannot sticker it now-- it is low end for grade.
Would you still want the 66, and at what increase in price, if any, over
the 65+ with sticker.
It is no longer high end for grade, and Laura will not offer it for
sale on Legend's site.
Don't tell me you would downgrade it back to 65+!!! >>
Think about it Laura makes money convincing people that a coin is under graded. Almost every coin on here website is 20% - 30% over the market price for that coin. She only buys these coins because she can buy them at or below market prices and make a higher return than the average dealer convincing people that the coin is really the next grade higher. The green sticker plays into this. >>
Nah. Laura makes money by educating her customers that quality is a continuum and not incremental - that those who pay more for quality can actually save money because the number on the holder limits the value of the coin - for this period in time. I can GUARANTEE you that she purchases no coin for below market prices. Of course, any dealer would if they could - perhaps you could point out the collector willing to sell his top end coins for below market???
If an MS65 market valued at $2,000 represents the top 90% of a coin date's quality and MS66 market valued at $5,000 the top 98% then who is to say that an MS65.9 representing the top 97.5% of a coin date's quality isn't a bargain at $3,000???
Only by arbitrarily and permanently affixing the 65 and 66 increments at some point the coin's quality scale can we possibly believe that not to be true. But since we all know that over time those supposedly affixed points move, eventually the coin's price and quality will equal out - and the bargain will be realized.