Barber Half - How does this toning pattern develop?

BryceM

Merry Christmas everyone!

Here's another question for the collective genius of the boards. I recently acquired this Barber to update a spot in my type collection. The coin is absolutely gorgeous in-hand and it has lively luster behind and around the toning. I'm a big fan of the "cir-cam" look, and visually, at least, this is somewhat along the same lines. My understanding is that the typical "cir-cam" look develops as day-to-day wear removes toning from the high points.

This coin does not appear to have been ciruclated and was given an MS grade by our hosts. How then, without wear, does this sort of toning develop in the protected areas but not over the devices? I'm suspecting an old dip somewhere back in time, but that doesn't seem to explain the whole story.

Sorry about the detail and focus in the photos. This represents the apex of what I can accomplish with my little P&S (PoS?) camera.

It's pretty easy to track this coin down using auction results, but you can guess the grade while you're at it.

braddick

Looks like it was in a nice, comfortable warm cardboard holder/album for many years.

I like it!

roadrunner

A lot of 1917 standing lib quarters get that toning pattern as well from years of carboard type holder storage or exposure to plenty of the usual contaminants in the air.
You don't see many like this because the dipper gets to them first.

Your coin was probably never dipped. Grade of MS63?

roadrunner

TomB

I've seen this pattern before, too. In my opinion this coin was never dipped and it likely has very frosty luster. I'm not certain how it happened, but your pieces is miles away more original than the typical MS Barber half dollar. Nice coin.

shorecoll

I agree, album toning. Maybe Library of Coins or Wayte Raymond.

magikbilly

I like it!!! Looks original and seems to have that warm, dusky dusty original look of rich depth that should be coveted IMHO. The "circ cam" look you describe is very different than the coin you have presented here as I understand it. 64? I am more impressed with the surfaces to worry 63 or 64 etc. Coin like this - doesn't matter so much to me.

Best wishes,
Eric
Edited to add: The coins I have had with this type of tone were LONG term cardboard storage.

BryceM

Thanks for the info. The prevailing opinion then is long-term carboard album storage? I've taken down a few old Peace and Walker Half albums but I've never seen this exact patern. Granted, most of those coins were not really MS beauties to start with, and most toned Peace dollars end up ugly no matter what you do with them. Part of the toning pattern of this Barber has something to do with the particular series?

I know its not even close to correct to call this a "cir-cam" look, but the contrast between lustrous devices and toned fields is what drew my attention. It is so much more interesting than the blast white examples out there. I can't really seem to get too excited about the sameness within the seated and barber series, but this example is really fascinating. I keep coming back to stare at it.

Can anyone explain chemically why it should have toned like this in an album? It doesn't make sense to the engineer in me, but now that I think about it, it does look old. What a shame how many must have been dipped.

magikbilly

"What a shame how many must have been dipped."

It is indeed. The coins I had with this tone were Pr Barber and Seated.
I see I did not wish you a Happy Holiday - so - Happy Holidays!!!

Best wishes,
Eric

ricko

That surface is original... likely old album as stated above.... That particular form of tarnish I have not seen duplicated. Cheers, RickO

astrorat

+1 for the long-term cardboard holder storage.

Very nice, BTW.

BryceM

Thanks everyone. Forums like this mean a lot for people who live in the middle of nowhere and have few local resources.

BTW, here's what the TPG's thought of it:

I paid a small premium for this coin but I doubt I'll ever regret it.

PonyExpress8

This coin was once in my registry set of Barber Halves and I'm pleased to see it has an appreciative owner.

I have seen this type of toning on occasion caused by long term storage in an album, I call it antique toning in my personal reference. As I recall my 1911 and 1908 were similarly toned to this one in the set. The 1908 has revisited me and is in my inventory at this time. I crossed one of these from an NGC holder (it might have been this coin) and it was later CAC'd. Personally I much prefer a coin such as this to a dipped white one. Not everyone's cup of tea for sure but I'm glad you enjoy it too. Merry Christmas to you and your family and thanks for posting. I loved seeing it again!

BryceM

It's very cool to know something of its origin. Thanks for sharing! It will be well-loved in its new home.

BarberFanatic

As soon as I saw the coin I immediately identified it as one of Glenn's old pieces. Glenn has a very good eye for coins,
so I have no doubt she is a stunner in person. She certainly looks great from your photos.

I agree with everyone who said long-term storage in an old cardboard-style album as the cause of the toning.
You asked why it would tone like this in an album? Simple: older cardboard contained quantities of sulfur,
which is highly chemically reactive with silver.

Flatwoods

I like it very much and I bet it's even nicer in hand.
Congrats on a great coin.

BryceM

<< <i>You asked why it would tone like this in an album? Simple: older cardboard contained quantities of sulfur,
which is highly chemically reactive with silver. >>



Thanks, but that isn't my question. Obviously the culprit is sulfur, but why would the reaction take place in the relatively protected areas in the fields while the devices are relatively spared? The carboard would be expected to be in direct contact with the high points - in this case the rim and devices, yet those areas are spared while the areas not in direct contact with the cardboard show the toning. Most old album peace dollars and walkers show pretty uniform toning. This one shows more of a cameo type effect. Is it something to do with surface hardness, metal flow, a planchet treatment particular to this era, the barber design, or something else?

Whatever it was, I like it.

TomB

If it was stored in one of the Dansco style albums then only the rims would be in contact with cardboard and the rest of the coin (interior design elements) would not have contact. Obviously, none of us can explain everything with certainty, but it may have been that there were some hand oils on the coin's raised surfaces that inhibited the toning in those areas.

coinkat

attractive coin-

ARCO

I love that coin. I even owned it for a year or so.

Basically, the coin survived being dipped, but was covered and protected enough that its patination was slow and was accelerated at the edges. Probably from sitting in an old cardboard folder with chemicals that would react to silver.

Numismatics would be so much more enjoyeable if the majority of coins hadn't been cleaned and tampered with and looked exactly like that 1912 half...IMO.

Tyler

rhedden

This is a common toning color and pattern on Barber coins- especially dimes. Many of the dipped-white pieces you see in holders used to look this way. Someone dipped them hoping to find an MS66 coin under the "tarnish." There was a time back in the late 1980s when that coin would've gone straight in the dip jar in every coin shop in America.

BryceM

Well, a person can always dip it, but you can't ever "un-dip" it. This one will never leave its plastic home as long as I own it. You barber guys are nuts. Three of you recognize this exact coin just from my lousy photos? Two of you have owned it?

Dave99B

It only all Barbers looked like this. One great old half dollar --- IMO, very original, and album toned.

Thanks for sharing.

Dave

Barberian

I have a Pan Pac circulated commemorative with aspects of the same toning as your Barber half. The Pan Pac is probably AU58 (considerable cartwheeling luster) and has dark toning around the rim and lettering, and light amber toning elsewhere on the coin much like the amber toning on your Barber half. Unfortunately, this is a scan and it doesn't capture the color and luster of the coin well. That's probably why I got it for a low price on Ebay but was pleasantly surprised when I was able to look at it in hand.

By the way, I love the look of your Barber half!