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2011-S vs. 2011-P (25th ASE)
Absolution
Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
Anyone else boggled by this? I thought the 2011-P would be more valuable than the 2011-S. Is it because the S is the first time they did this with this coin and there are always Reverse Proofs in every other ASE prior year sets?
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<< <i>The "S" is a 100k mintage "business-strike"--if you want to call it that--coin in the sea of other business strikes with million+ mintages. I think it should reign supreme in this set. >>
<< <i>Anyone else boggled by this? I thought the 2011-P would be more valuable than the 2011-S. Is it because the S is the first time they did this with this coin and there are always Reverse Proofs in every other ASE prior year sets? >>
True.. the MS70 - S - are selling for more, however, the P 69's have the S beat all over the board. FYI the only other Reverse Proof ASE was for the 20th Anniv. set in 2006 and not, as you indicated above, in every other prior year set.
Edited: ...and the RP is much better looking than the S -- just my random thoughts.
There are way more bullion ASE collector's than proof collector's, but there are more proof collectors then there are unc by mint mark collectors. If you look at the years the mint made both the "W", and proofs to demand, they sold more of the Proofs. Now the question is how many of the proof collectors will feel they have to include the Rev Proofs, and how many unc collectors will feel they have to include the "S" in there sets, only time will tell.
I still think the S will be the better coin in the long term, I'm just not as sure as I first was. I also don't think the differential will be as big as I first thought.
the Reverse proof will win hands down. But i too suspect the 2011 S will be The coin in this set...
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
S mintage is probably a better coin long term.
<< <i>My thought was that there are way more Unc collector's than Proof collector's in the ASE series. Now I'm not sure I got the numbers right. >>
Not likely...lots more proof collectors than the Mint Mark bullion version. Just look at the annual sales. How many collectors collect the no mm bullion version is any ones guess.
<< <i>No love for the 47,000 or so 08/07 coins? Every single one of the 11 S coins went to collectors who knew what they were. I wonder how many of the 08/07s are just buried in the sock drawers of 15 year olds who got them as gifts and had no idea what they are. >>
This another case of Modern Rarities...or oops..!! as far as the mint is concerned.If you look at the 2000 Cheerios Sacagawea dollar ..who knew in those boxes of Cheerios that there would be a winner.
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<< <i>My thought was that there are way more Unc collector's than Proof collector's in the ASE series. Now I'm not sure I got the numbers right. >>
Not likely...lots more proof collectors than the Mint Mark bullion version. Just look at the annual sales. How many collectors collect the no mm bullion version is any ones guess. >>
Yes, that is the point I was making. The mint sells more proofs than the "W" uncs. I can also attest to personally, as I'm sure most coin dealers can, there are a ton of people collecting the ASE by year, in bullion. This is particularly obvious in the January/February time frame. It has to be way more than the proof collectors.
<< <i>No love for the 47,000 or so 08/07 coins? Every single one of the 11 S coins went to collectors who knew what they were. I wonder how many of the 08/07s are just buried in the sock drawers of 15 year olds who got them as gifts and had no idea what they are. >>
There are typically more collectors by year and mint mark, then there are for varieties. So there should be more demand for the 11 S compared to the 08/07. I also like your point about the possibility of a lot of 08/07 still out there unidentified. Anyone know how the 47,000 figure was arrived at?
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<< <i>My thought was that there are way more Unc collector's than Proof collector's in the ASE series. Now I'm not sure I got the numbers right. >>
Not likely...lots more proof collectors than the Mint Mark bullion version. Just look at the annual sales. How many collectors collect the no mm bullion version is any ones guess. >>
Yes, that is the point I was making. The mint sells more proofs than the "W" uncs. I can also attest to personally, as I'm sure most coin dealers can, there are a ton of people collecting the ASE by year, in bullion. This is particularly obvious in the January/February time frame. It has to be way more than the proof collectors. >>
I believe it's a misconception that those of us who buy the bullion ASE's collect them. I for one, do not. They are purchased, along with the bullion AGE's and or bullion bars and rounds, as a PM speculation and potential hedge against inflation.
<< <i>Yes, but I'm guessing you are typically buying more than one, and do you care about the date? Additionally, I have bought a number of by-date collections of ASE's in Dansco albums, when people have gotten tired of there collections, or needed cash. You can also tell by talking with the folks, trust me there are a ton of bullion ASE collectors. I run in to way more of them, than I do people collecting the Proofs. >>
I do not consider J6P who buys an occasional bullion ASE to give to his kids or grand kids a Collector. Those that purchase the bullion version, actually only have 1 key date - 1996, - which sells at a premium. The rest are considered bullion with only a slight mark up over spot. That is not true with the PR or MS (with a mint mark) ASE
<< <i>Is there any difference(changes) between the 20th anniversary Reverse proof and the 25th Anniversary one
the Reverse proof will win hands down. But i too suspect the 2011 S will be The coin in this set... >>
Personally, I prefer the 2006 coin since the laser ditherings are finer than what was used on the 2011.
I really dislike those little laser spots!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, but I'm guessing you are typically buying more than one, and do you care about the date? Additionally, I have bought a number of by-date collections of ASE's in Dansco albums, when people have gotten tired of there collections, or needed cash. You can also tell by talking with the folks, trust me there are a ton of bullion ASE collectors. I run in to way more of them, than I do people collecting the Proofs. >>
I do not consider J6P who buys an occasional bullion ASE to give to his kids or grand kids a Collector. Those that purchase the bullion version, actually only have 1 key date - 1996, - which sells at a premium. The rest are considered bullion with only a slight mark up over spot. That is not true with the PR or MS (with a mint mark) ASE >>
I'm not talking about J6P who is buying an occasional ASE for his kids or grand kids. I am talking about people collecting the Bullion ASE's by date. It really is obvious that there are a ton of Bullion ASE collectors out there. It would be obvious to you too if you were ever to setup at a show to sell coins. The fact that there is any premium for a '96 bullion eagle is also evidence of the huge collector base. There were over 3.6 million of those made, and there is still a premium on them. Don't believe me that's fine, but why don't you ask a dealer at your local B&M or a dealer who sells ASE at coin shows.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, but I'm guessing you are typically buying more than one, and do you care about the date? Additionally, I have bought a number of by-date collections of ASE's in Dansco albums, when people have gotten tired of there collections, or needed cash. You can also tell by talking with the folks, trust me there are a ton of bullion ASE collectors. I run in to way more of them, than I do people collecting the Proofs. >>
I do not consider J6P who buys an occasional bullion ASE to give to his kids or grand kids a Collector. Those that purchase the bullion version, actually only have 1 key date - 1996, - which sells at a premium. The rest are considered bullion with only a slight mark up over spot. That is not true with the PR or MS (with a mint mark) ASE >>
I'm not talking about J6P who is buying an occasional ASE for his kids or grand kids. I am talking about people collecting the Bullion ASE's by date. It really is obvious that there are a ton of Bullion ASE collectors out there. It would be obvious to you too if you were ever to setup at a show to sell coins. The fact that there is any premium for a '96 bullion eagle is also evidence of the huge collector base. There were over 3.6 million of those made, and there is still a premium on them. Don't believe me that's fine, but why don't you ask a dealer at your local B&M or a dealer who sells ASE at coin shows. >>
Why not do a forum survey and determine how many coin collectors are collecting the bullion ASE.
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<< <i>Yes, but I'm guessing you are typically buying more than one, and do you care about the date? Additionally, I have bought a number of by-date collections of ASE's in Dansco albums, when people have gotten tired of there collections, or needed cash. You can also tell by talking with the folks, trust me there are a ton of bullion ASE collectors. I run in to way more of them, than I do people collecting the Proofs. >>
I do not consider J6P who buys an occasional bullion ASE to give to his kids or grand kids a Collector. Those that purchase the bullion version, actually only have 1 key date - 1996, - which sells at a premium. The rest are considered bullion with only a slight mark up over spot. That is not true with the PR or MS (with a mint mark) ASE >>
I'm not talking about J6P who is buying an occasional ASE for his kids or grand kids. I am talking about people collecting the Bullion ASE's by date. It really is obvious that there are a ton of Bullion ASE collectors out there. It would be obvious to you too if you were ever to setup at a show to sell coins. The fact that there is any premium for a '96 bullion eagle is also evidence of the huge collector base. There were over 3.6 million of those made, and there is still a premium on them. Don't believe me that's fine, but why don't you ask a dealer at your local B&M or a dealer who sells ASE at coin shows. >>
Why not do a forum survey and determine how many coin collectors are collecting the bullion ASE. >>
I think a forum survey would be interesting, but it would not give us the full picture. Forum members are typically more dedicated collectors, and more likely to have an extensive and varied collection. But I could still see value in it.
<< <i>Is there any difference(changes) between the 20th anniversary Reverse proof and the 25th Anniversary one >>
Yes, the reverse is different.
<< <i>Give me a break! The proofs look so much better than the bullion versions. I don't think the RPs look quit as good as the regular proofs, but still far better than the bullion/uncs. Collectors buy proofs, bullion buyers buy bullion, yes some buy both, but the proofs are still the prefered collector coin. >>
That might be true but on this particular set there are 2 Keys only made for this set the 2011-S and the Reverse Proof according to the mint.
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
The Reverse Proof is a type of SAE which one must have. The S-mint is just an UNC coin with diff mint mark.
If I have to have just 1 coin to represent the ASE series, I'd take the 2011-P Reverse Proof with 100k mintage
<< <i>I can take the Reverse Proof anyday anytime.
The Reverse Proof is a type of SAE which one must have. The S-mint is just an UNC coin with diff mint mark.
If I have to have just 1 coin to represent the ASE series, I'd take the 2011-P Reverse Proof with 100k mintage
Exactly, Let's say one makes a type ASE set. You need 1 proof, 1 rev proof, and 1 bullion/burnished. The 's' doesn't look as special. Still a very good coin, but not the top dog.
<< <i>Exactly, Let's say one makes a type ASE set. You need 1 proof, 1 rev proof, and 1 bullion/burnished. >>
Only 3 coins?
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>Im confused now....So is it the 2011 S or the 2011 P who's the top dog in the 25th Anniversary set >>
It depends on which one you need to complete your 70 set...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>I'm gonna go with the 2011-S as tops from the 25th set and second semi-key overall (70's seem to be fewer too). The 1995-W is tops overall and top proof. The 2011-S is the top burnished and the only "S" burnished. I'd put the 2011-P third because of the existence of the 2006-P RP ASE. The lowest mintage "W" burnished, the 2011-W, would be 4th. Now, with that said, you'd likely have to stick the 08/07 variety in there somewhere...maybe as high as second? However, some collectors view it as unessential. jmo The 2011 bullion coin with a 25th set label is gonna be a very relevant part of a lot of ASE collections too, just not sure how relevant yet. >>
Nice theory.....
Reality check 101 on PCGS 70 (FS) graded - current price range.
1) 1995W...wins hands down
2) 08/07.... $2k+
3) 2011 P .... $650+
4) 2006 P.... $650
5) 2011-S $500-$600
1995-W = 3,000
08/07 = 400
2011-P = 244
2006-P = 202
2011-S = 382
2011-W = 78
Obviously, the prices fluctuate by the minute, but I think it's clear that things are unclear in the ASE market right now. Why? The 2011 sets and non-sets, the proliferation of labels, and the current flood of available 2011 coins. Also, there seems to be quite a few speculators who did not do their due diligence.
My conclusion...the '95-w is overpriced and the rest, especially the 2011-W burnished, are under priced. Again, jmo
<< <i>Big markets are efficient and generally reflect the value of a product, at a point in time, based on all available information. Small markets (like the ASE), and especially 70FS holdered ASE's, are not so efficient/accurate. It might be better to look current sales of 69s and then speculate about over/under priced coins:
1995-W = 3,000
08/07 = 400
2011-P = 244
2006-P = 202
2011-S = 382
2011-W = 78
Obviously, the prices fluctuate by the minute, but I think it's clear that things are unclear in the ASE market right now. Why? The 2011 sets and non-sets, the proliferation of labels, and the current flood of available 2011 coins. Also, there seems to be quite a few speculators who did not do their due diligence.
My conclusion...the '95-w is overpriced and the rest, especially the 2011-W burnished, are under priced. Again, jmo >>
I don't know from what source you're getting your info from ... but eBay's completed auctions ( for the last 2 days with actual sales) has the S mm PCGS 69 graded, selling from a low: $227 to a high $285 and trending lower. True at one time, about a month ago, the PCGS 69's were selling in the $350+ range. For the P (PCGS 69's) (last 2 days)was $260 - $306.
And FYI, the ASE market it perhaps the largest modern coin market & by no means "small" as in your description. Do a little bid of research before you post something.
1995W (proof)
2011P (Reverse Proof)
2011S (Burnished)
2006 (Bullion)
Personally Im trying to load up on cheaper MS69 S minted coins which can be cracked out and resent for a higher grade. The S minted coin is very undervalued right now in MS69 grades. The US may not end up making another S mm coin
<< <i>My take on this is that the real key on this set will be the S minted coin. There is already a Reverse Proof and no S coins so far. Here is what i believe to be the keys in their respective finishes.
1995W (proof)
2011P (Reverse Proof)
2011S (Burnished)
2006 (Bullion)
Personally Im trying to load up on cheaper MS69 S minted coins which can be cracked out and resent for a higher grade. The S minted coin is very undervalued right now in MS69 grades. The US may not end up making another S mm coin >>
Did you mean 1996 for Bullion? or did I miss something?
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<< <i>No love for the 47,000 or so 08/07 coins? Every single one of the 11 S coins went to collectors who knew what they were. I wonder how many of the 08/07s are just buried in the sock drawers of 15 year olds who got them as gifts and had no idea what they are. >>
There are typically more collectors by year and mint mark, then there are for varieties. So there should be more demand for the 11 S compared to the 08/07. I also like your point about the possibility of a lot of 08/07 still out there unidentified. Anyone know how the 47,000 figure was arrived at? >>
Back when the 08/07's were discovered by forum member John "The Legend" Nanney, the Mint had stated an estimated 47K...Later, forum member Lope208 drafted a FOIA, and the Mint gave a more exact number which if I recall correctly was 46,318.
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<< <i>My take on this is that the real key on this set will be the S minted coin. There is already a Reverse Proof and no S coins so far. Here is what i believe to be the keys in their respective finishes.
1995W (proof)
2011P (Reverse Proof)
2011S (Burnished)
2006 (Bullion)
Personally Im trying to load up on cheaper MS69 S minted coins which can be cracked out and resent for a higher grade. The S minted coin is very undervalued right now in MS69 grades. The US may not end up making another S mm coin >>
Did you mean 1996 for Bullion? or did I miss something? >>
You are right...
1995W (proof)
2011P (Reverse Proof)
2011S (Burnished)
1996 (Bullion)
<< <i>Back when the 08/07's were discovered by forum member John "The Legend" Nanney, the Mint had stated an estimated 47K...Later, forum member Lope208 drafted a FOIA, and the Mint gave a more exact number which if I recall correctly was 46,318. >>
Very cool, thanks for the info.